The Outhouse - The Greatest Comic Book Forum

[IvCNuB4]

Dear God. These are
fictional
fucking
characters.
They DON'T really exist. It cracks me up when fans claim that it's a personal attack on them or that something DC or Marvel did is a slap in the fans' faces ! Like I'm sure the head honchos at these companies sit in their state-of-the-art orbiting satellite meeting rooms twirling their mustaches and coming up with new ways to piss off people they've never even met

Bottom line, kids, any character they create is their property. They can do whatever they want with that character, whenever they want.

If you want to make a real difference, get off your virtual soapbox, go get a degree, polish up that resume, apply at these Companies, and hope you get hired so that someday you might actually be entitled to have a say in the matter.

In the meantime, you're not owed, entitled or deserving of anything

[Zechs]

Exactly my point. The way they handled JPV, Steph, Cass, Wally and even Connor Hawke was a blatant middle finger to the fans. The reasons they have for excluding or even ignoring their existences reeks of personal prejudices and nothing else.

Well for JPV we all know the reason why. It's cause the character was co-created by Joe Quesada.

[Herald]

This is a very thoughtful article and a lot more reasoned than some debate I've seen on this topic. I do have to take point on your analysis of the sales however. Stephanie Brown's Batgirl book ended its run with a little over 22K issues at #24, not #12, which is where each of the other books mentioned are now. There's no guarantee these books are going to make it to 24, and I would argue - short of a miracle - they won't. We've already seen an art change on Batwing and a writer change on Stormwatch in an attempt to generate more positive sales. DC too showed a great deal of commitment to Stephanie's book by putting one of their superstar artists on the title, Dustin Nguyen, and sales still slumped. The sad thing is (and this is not unique to the New 52) if a book is short on sales, it won't get another shot right away, particularly for a more obscure character.

Tell that to Nu Beetle. His last book dragged itself over broken glass all the way down to 10,000 in sales. DC deliberately kept it going despite declining sales, all the way down there. And, despite that poor showing and subsequent cancellation, they still relaunched his book in the DCnU.

Of course, Stephanie Brown is not the company darling that DC is desperate to put over like Jaime Reyes is, so she didn't get the chance to drop all the way down to the basement like that, much less get another ongoing series regardless.

Stephanie may have a vocal fan base, but DC has no way of knowing how many people will buy her book EXCEPT from that last sales number. And they can't LAUNCH a book at 22K. Batwing, Stormwatch, all of these launched way higher than where they fell now. Double or more in some cases.

Stephanie didn't have the benefit of being launched during "The New 52!", in which every single title -- including the venerable Action Comics and Detective Comics -- was rebooted back to issue 1, with a massive, media-spanning advertising campaign backing it up. As those books you mentioned show, anything will sell well at first, given that enormous a push.

And given your argument here, they knew how many people would buy a Jaime Reyes series from the last sales number of his first series: 10,000. Notice how that didn't stop them from trying again, anyway...

AND how is DC (strictly from a sales standpoint) to know how many of those 22K readers were buying "Batgirl" or "Stephanie Brown AS Batgirl"? What if a quarter of them were simply Bat fans and wouldn't buy a SPOILER series? Now you're down to a 17K launch. Can you see how this could be a problem?My hope is that Stephanie does come back, either in a supporting role or even in a title of her own, but when she does, her fans MUST be ready to support the book in HUGE numbers. If it doesn't launch at over 50K right away, it's not going to last long, statistically speaking.

Again, Steph won't have the once-in-a-lifetime chance to launch as part of a company-wide reboot back to issue 1, with a massive, media-spanning advertising campaign backing her up. The comparison is hardly fair or balanced.

Also, let's see how long Jaime Reyes's second series lasts, statistically speaking...

And if she's had TWO tries at the rodeo and not sold well, EEK. There will be plenty of reason to call her "toxic" then.

So, when does the aforementioned editorial favorite, Nu Beetle, get his "toxic" label, then?? This is his second "rodeo", and he's been roped and branded even more quickly than last time. I'm absolutely sure he'll NEVER get that label.

There is a blatant bias at DC, make no mistake about it.

[Herald]

Dear God. These are
fictional
fucking
characters.

...he said, despite repeatedly visiting a website whose main reason for existing is for people to spend time and energy discussing these
fictional
fucking
characters.



If you don't think comic book characters are worth so much discussion, why are you on a comic book message board??

"We're ALL mad here.
You must be mad, or you wouldn't have come here."

[Herald]

True.

DC's contempt for its fans has done plenty of damage to the company's reputation.

Really? And here I thought it was shitty marketing and incompetent business decisions all along.

You're both right.
It's their signature hat trick.

[IvCNuB4]

...he said, despite repeatedly visiting a website whose main reason for existing is for people to spend time and energy discussing these
fictional
fucking
characters.



If you don't think comic book characters are worth so much discussion, why are you on a comic book message board??

"We're ALL mad here.
You must be mad, or you wouldn't have come here."

Discussion is one thing. Irrational ranting and pointless "rising up" out of some self-induced feeling of entitlement is Fan Dumb.

[Timbales]

I am seeing that comic book fans are a lot like music fans.

They seem to lock onto the music/comics of their mid to late teens and view that as "when it was good".

[Zechs]

Discussion is one thing. Irrational ranting and pointless "rising up" out of some self-induced feeling of entitlement is Fan Dumb.

I was going to reply but now I'm just gonna go.. DAAAMN!!!

[Herald]

Discussion is one thing. Irrational ranting and pointless "rising up" out of some self-induced feeling of entitlement is Fan Dumb.

As expected, you are Comically Missing The Point.

You're just Complaining About People Not Liking The Show. The fact of the matter is that they are allowed to petition for more/better use of their favorite characters.

It's called Freedom of Expression; look into it.

[Grayson]

I am seeing that comic book fans are a lot like music fans.

They seem to lock onto the music/comics of their mid to late teens and view that as "when it was good".

Dear God, I have never understood that logic. I was a teenager in the late 90's/early 00's and I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that the music of that time period was absolutely terrible...and for the most part it has only gotten worse.

But I see the point that you are trying to make.

[Herald]

If you want to make a real difference, get off your virtual soapbox, go get a degree, polish up that resume, apply at these Companies, and hope you get hired so that someday you might actually be entitled to have a say in the matter.

And before you reply, TRY this time to steer clear of the typical last refuge of the offended-on-behalf-of-the-company-they-don't-even-work-for: "Let's See You Do Better!"

[SilverPhoenix]

If you want to make a real difference, get off your virtual soapbox, go get a degree, polish up that resume, apply at these Companies, and hope you get hired so that someday you might actually be entitled to have a say in the matter.

Let me do you one better. If I have the talent to actually work on a story, why in the bloody fuck would I play in a sandbox that's designed to only benefit characters that can sell T-Shirts at the expense of characters that can still have a story told about them?

It's stuff like this that makes Marvel and DC unappealing to work for. Sorry, but there isn't a damn thing I can add to Batman's Mythos, especially if I have to tell the story using Bruce Wayne. I rather create my original works and let their fate be decided by the public.

[Herald]

Let me do you one better. If I have the talent to actually work on a story, why in the bloody fuck would I play in a sandbox that's designed to only benefit characters that can sell T-Shirts at the expense of characters that can still have a story told about them?

I believe that the lesser-used characters hold more promise. Frankly, I'd rather write Batgirl Cass Cain than Batman Bruce Wayne.

[bkthomson]

I believe that the lesser-used characters hold more promise. Frankly, I'd rather write Batgirl Cass Cain than Batman Bruce Wayne.

No one wants to read your porn fiction.

[Herald]

No one wants to read your porn fiction.

The fact that you suggested PORN fiction says that you do.