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[Nightfly]

I remember playing that game and thinking, if these cats had such a hard on for Aayla, why did they shoot her so many times after she had fallen already? That doesn't seem like an act of compassion, but rather of contempt.

One of the oddest moments of Battlefronts is where the game advances the time period from Old republic to Empire, and the 501st goes directloy from "being the good guys" to mercilessly pacifying some planet full of the actual good guys.

If nothing else, that should really teach you what the deal is with these clones.

No matter how much EU sources like to give them personalities to humanize them; no matter how much the 501st is romanticized, make no mistake, people. These are the bad guys.

One of the Clone Wars Adventures stories covers that switch and it is pretty scary. It's in volume 4, in a story called Orders - to be frank it kinda made me feel sorry for the clones (once again). I don't think of them as bad guys, I think of them like guns. Clones don't kill people, their superior's orders kill people.

Spoiler Synopsis Below (from wiki);









On the planet Garqi, Aiwha Squad (led by RC-1013 "Sarge") assumes responsibility for an orphaned farmer kid named Evan. Aiwha must escort him through hostile territory, while trying to help him understand their own strange lives of honor and sacrifice.

Finally reaching a Galactic Republic outpost, the commandos receive Order 66 and are forced to kill Jedi Master Tra'avis in front of Evan's eyes. The boy is left wondering if he really understands the commandos at all.

[Strict31]

One of the Clone Wars Adventures stories covers that switch and it is pretty scary. It's in volume 4, in a story called Orders - to be frank it kinda made me feel sorry for the clones (once again). I don't think of them as bad guys, I think of them like guns. Clones don't kill people, their superior's orders kill people.

That's the thing: you only see this stuff about honor and sacrifice from the EU sources. The authors have a love affair with these cats that pretty much started with the 501st (IRL). It is the EU that has romanticized the idea of clone troopers.

And the way I figure it, portraying these guys as unique individuals, each with deeper motivations and feelings of their own kinda stands in direct opposition to the idea of an army of clones in the first place.

I mean, how much of a well-developed personality can you instill in a person who has been accelerated to adulthood in a matter of weeks? Or months? They might as well have just held open recruiting for all the benefit they gained from clones. I mean, hell, Green Berets and SEALs seem just as combat effective, if not moreso, and we don't need to clone them.

But in the movies, they seem to have little personal initiative at all, beyond what is practical on the battlefield, so as not to interfere with their programming. I understand there was a cut scene in which Cody attempts to refuse Order 66, but that ended up on the floor and is not canon.

So basically, EU sources try to tell us that these guys are not only totally likeable despite the horrible things they've done, but also that they have complete free will, except when they don't.

Way I figure it, they need to shit or get off the pot.

[Nightfly]

That's the thing: you only see this stuff about honor and sacrifice from the EU sources. The authors have a love affair with these cats that pretty much started with the 501st (IRL). It is the EU that has romanticized the idea of clone troopers.

And the way I figure it, portraying these guys as unique individuals, each with deeper motivations and feelings of their own kinda stands in direct opposition to the idea of an army of clones in the first place.

I mean, how much of a well-developed personality can you instill in a person who has been accelerated to adulthood in a matter of weeks? Or months? They might as well have just held open recruiting for all the benefit they gained from clones. I mean, hell, Green Berets and SEALs seem just as combat effective, if not moreso, and we don't need to clone them.

But in the movies, they seem to have little personal initiative at all, beyond what is practical on the battlefield, so as not to interfere with their programming. I understand there was a cut scene in which Cody attempts to refuse Order 66, but that ended up on the floor and is not canon.

So basically, EU sources try to tell us that these guys are not only totally likeable despite the horrible things they've done, but also that they have complete free will, except when they don't.

Way I figure it, they need to shit or get off the pot.

I get your point, but where unique souls are individual personalities will emerge.

Usually it's the Jedis individualizing the clones more than the clones [individualizing] themselves. That was the point of the Yoda scene I mentioned as my favorite -- he was trying to convince them that they were unique individuals despite most (obvious) evidence to the contrary.
I think this behavior is consistent w/ Jedi motivations, but maybe that's just me (and George )

Sidenote: Do you believe in Souls, Strict31? If so, do you believe clones would have unique/individual ones?

I also take issue w/ your assertion that the clones are unlikeable because, as soldiers, they followed orders. That is what most soldiers do, even non-clone ones. And on the scale of German soldiers carrying out Nazi horrors, I'd argue the clones had virtually zero free will by comparison.

As to the movies, Lucas always cuts 'em down to the bare bones. Are the scenes he adds to the dvds canon? They weren't in the original theatrical release.

Even if one wants to argue the free will point, I'd say,
1) their psychological identities are super immature - clearly enough to make them barely responsible for any actions deemed 'their own'. Sorta like juvenile law making distinctions for immature minds.
2) the clones were never meant to be more than cheap substitutes for thinking/learning machines on the battlefield.
Of course they would need to do some thinking for themselves... even Terminators enjoy operational autonomy as long as they're ultimately in pursuit/service of their primary directives. I think that's the whole point of employing thinking computers.

[Strict31]

I don't know from souls. Give me something to quantify and I'll debate it with you. But souls? Like I said: not an objective thing.

And I take issue not with soldiers as heroes, but with cloned killers as heroes. It's not like it's an episode of the Unit after all, or Navy SEALs with Michael Biehn and Charlie Sheen.

What I take issue with is these creatures designed for war and killing being presented as if they are as normal as any other hero.

I mean, if you wanna do a story in which a war "machine" learns to be human, like Soldier with Kurt Russel, that's different. That's almost a "rite of passage" story. But these EU stories, and now the CW cartoon assumes a reality that is different than the canon established by the movies.

And if the show is gonna get all Band of Brothers when they do these clone-centric episodes, with the goal of showing you that these clones really are not all the same and are just as individualistic as a normal human, then I start wondering why in the fuck they needed a damn army of clones in the first place.

If you take away what makes a cloned soldier "special", then he's just another sack of genetic material, like any regular joe.

[Derm]

I don't know from souls. Give me something to quantify and I'll debate it with you. But souls? Like I said: not an objective thing.

And I take issue not with soldiers as heroes, but with cloned killers as heroes. It's not like it's an episode of the Unit after all, or Navy SEALs with Michael Biehn and Charlie Sheen.

What I take issue with is these creatures designed for war and killing being presented as if they are as normal as any other hero.

I mean, if you wanna do a story in which a war "machine" learns to be human, like Soldier with Kurt Russel, that's different. That's almost a "rite of passage" story. But these EU stories, and now the CW cartoon assumes a reality that is different than the canon established by the movies.

And if the show is gonna get all Band of Brothers when they do these clone-centric episodes, with the goal of showing you that these clones really are not all the same and are just as individualistic as a normal human, then I start wondering why in the fuck they needed a damn army of clones in the first place.

If you take away what makes a cloned soldier "special", then he's just another sack of genetic material, like any regular joe.

I'm sure the fact that they are clones raised to fight and obey orders is an important part of the story but I don't thinkit's the only reason they were needed.
I got the impression that the republic had no army of any merit to deal with this type of galactic conflict.
If Palpatine could have secretly build up an army to drop into a conflict like this with having to go to the bother of cloning them he probably would have.
He convinced the sepratiste guys to rebel because it looked like they could strong arm their way to independence and then all of a sudden the republic has the army it needs.
If the Separatist guys knew before hand that the republic had this army they may never have made this move.

[Zechs]

Exactly. The Seperatists thought they had the best army in the galaxy. They thought the only thing stopping them would be the Jedi and at the current situation they would have been push overs.

This Clone War not only make things easier for Palpatine to not only gather more power and strengthen his stranglehold in the Senate but also it allowed him the ablity to conquer worlds under the guise of protection against the Seperatists.

Palpatine's plot was perfect. Make the Jedi think one of them made an army for future use. The only thing that continues to baffle me is that the Jedi where stupid enough to accept it and not dig deeper. I know there was a war but you think one of them would be curious to learn more about the programing and stuff that came about their clones. If they did they could have learned the plot against them. But then again Jedi = idiots. Well save for Anakin. Only smart one amongst them.

[Cat-Scratch]

Exactly. The Seperatists thought they had the best army in the galaxy. They thought the only thing stopping them would be the Jedi and at the current situation they would have been push overs.

This Clone War not only make things easier for Palpatine to not only gather more power and strengthen his stranglehold in the Senate but also it allowed him the ablity to conquer worlds under the guise of protection against the Seperatists.

Palpatine's plot was perfect. Make the Jedi think one of them made an army for future use. The only thing that continues to baffle me is that the Jedi where stupid enough to accept it and not dig deeper. I know there was a war but you think one of them would be curious to learn more about the programing and stuff that came about their clones. If they did they could have learned the plot against them. But then again Jedi = idiots. Well save for Anakin. Only smart one amongst them.

Wow, that's a way of explaining away Lucas' giant plot hole.

[Zechs]

Wow, that's a way of explaining away Lucas' giant plot hole.

Not really.. in Lucas' frame of mind the Prequel Jedi = Idiots. OT Jedi= Idiots who learned.

[Cat-Scratch]

Not really.. in Lucas' frame of mind the Prequel Jedi = Idiots. OT Jedi= Idiots who learned.

I thought his frame of mind was the same as the rest of us.........."Natalie Portman is a hawtie... me want!"

[Zechs]

I thought his frame of mind was the same as the rest of us.........."Natalie Portman is a hawtie... me want!"

That's your frame of mind, not his.

[sdsichero]

I remember playing that game and thinking, if these cats had such a hard on for Aayla, why did they shoot her so many times after she had fallen already? That doesn't seem like an act of compassion, but rather of contempt.

It may have been the urge from the order was unstoppable. Otherwise, it could be that they wanted to be sure she was dead and not sufferring.

One of the oddest moments of Battlefronts is where the game advances the time period from Old republic to Empire, and the 501st goes directloy from "being the good guys" to mercilessly pacifying some planet full of the actual good guys.

If nothing else, that should really teach you what the deal is with these clones.

No matter how much EU sources like to give them personalities to humanize them; no matter how much the 501st is romanticized, make no mistake, people. These are the bad guys.

Yes they end up being bad guys. in general the Star Wars universe is black and white. However, like in real life, things often aren't. They were just tools. The organic equivalent to the battle droids. Unlike the droids though (well the clankers not R2 & 3PO), the clones did develop individuality.

[Chris]

I watched the first episode of this tonight. Liked it.

[sdsichero]

I don't know from souls. Give me something to quantify and I'll debate it with you. But souls? Like I said: not an objective thing.

And I take issue not with soldiers as heroes, but with cloned killers as heroes. It's not like it's an episode of the Unit after all, or Navy SEALs with Michael Biehn and Charlie Sheen.

What I take issue with is these creatures designed for war and killing being presented as if they are as normal as any other hero.

I mean, if you wanna do a story in which a war "machine" learns to be human, like Soldier with Kurt Russel, that's different. That's almost a "rite of passage" story. But these EU stories, and now the CW cartoon assumes a reality that is different than the canon established by the movies.

And if the show is gonna get all Band of Brothers when they do these clone-centric episodes, with the goal of showing you that these clones really are not all the same and are just as individualistic as a normal human, then I start wondering why in the fuck they needed a damn army of clones in the first place.

If you take away what makes a cloned soldier "special", then he's just another sack of genetic material, like any regular joe.

Perhaps you should stop watching Star Wars at all... Lucas had "souls" (or if that is too uncomfortable individualism) pop up all over the place. Artoo and 3PO being prime examples. It's probably something to do with his universe being saturated with The Force (certainly a hard-to-nail-down concept).

Why they needed an army of clones? Probably they wanted just enough individuality to conquer the flaw of the droid army (remember in Phantom Menace, it just took taking out the capital ship to knock them all out).

They aren't "normal" humans, but they are human. They are bred to be soldiers and grow rapidly. In a lot of military themed movies they show how an individual's individuality is stripped from them during training. War further strips humanity away. In many of these stories though, they are showing just how clones are different from machines. I thnk it is is interesting and again draw a comparison to the Jem'Hadar.

Why is it that the clones only show personality in EU? Well, though the 2nd movie was called Attack of the Clones, how much did it really featiure the clones? They weren't the stars. And they only appeared in two movies. How much could they really feature them when they aren't the stars?

Side question... is The Clone Wars (both micro and maxi series) considered EU?

[Zechs]

We'll find out in the future if Lucas decides to ignore it.

[Nightfly]

It may have been the urge from the order was unstoppable. Otherwise, it could be that they wanted to be sure she was dead and not sufferring.

Yes they end up being bad guys. in general the Star Wars universe is black and white. However, like in real life, things often aren't. They were just tools. The organic equivalent to the battle droids. Unlike the droids though (well the clankers not R2 & 3PO), the clones did develop individuality.

Agreed on all counts.
This is how I see things as well.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if Palpatine chose human clones just for the grey area messiness their [individualized] development would provide.

But on the other hand...

Perhaps I'm wrong on this, but I always thought Palpatine in fact wanted the clone army for himself but that the Jedi snagged it out from under him.
Sure, Order 66 was always there & Palp coulda activated it immediately, but being the devious Sith he is, decided to play it strategical-like 'n wait for just the right moment.