The Outhouse - The Greatest Comic Book Forum

[Jack Burton]

I think if writers never wrote in Clones disobeying Order 66 the idea of a group of heroic Clones is easier to swallow. During ROTS I just took it to be the Clones were genetically modified like the Jem Hadar to be obedient to Palpatine at all cost. Also made it easier to see people like them since you could think hey Cody was a good guy until Palpatine made him try and kill Obi-Wan. Now it looks like all the Clones are traitorous a-holes and it's hard to root for them like that. Maybe they are trying to show how the Clones are similar to Anakin in the fallen hero aspect?

[Strict31]

EU = ™
I'll use an rpg story to illustrate my point. I've bought soo many rpg systems and finally arrived where I did (the HERO System) because of my relationship to rules.
Game systems put out books full of rules and then every single one of 'em adds the coda idea, "rules were made to be broken, having fun comes first". I disagree. In rpg gaming, I'm a rules stickler. So, I found the rules heaviest system I could 'n now translate every other system I've bought into their system. Why do I mention this...
Because when it comes to interpreting Star Wars I'm the exact opposite. All that G-Class & C-Class jazz sounds cool, but imo there's only one class and it's identified Star Wars™. If Lucas is willing to put his name and the SW™ logo on a product then it's canon enough for me. I mean, it's canonical enough to take my money, right?
Do I (mostly) defer to the movies? Sure, but only in as much as it services whatever total vision I've adopted as my interpretation of the SW universe (EU or otherwise) we all share.
Even with Tag & Bink, I think some of it is "real" (to my mind) and some of it just ain't.
Certain consumer avenues, like comics, have taken our money for so many years using the Star Wars™ label, forgive me for not jettisoning evey bit of SW I've come to adopt and appreciate just because one of George's new 2hr movies or 1/2hr cartoons possibly (or directly) contradicts it. My interpreation of SW also ignores midichlorians.

Personally, I think Star Trek fiction handles it better than SW fiction. Sure, that means that the cool novel you just read may never be considered canon in Trek. But it also means any new writer with an interesting idea doesn't have to conform that idea to some dumb shit some random shitbord crapped out fifteen years ago in a shitty comic book. Or worse, in a shitty RPG supplement.

But at the same time, Trek fiction has tighter editorial control when it comes to the books and storylines that are considered canon. Like the DS-9 continuation series. In some cases, like with Voyager's Pathways, the person writing the book was the same person in charge of the show. But that was rare, of course. Prior to pathways, it had never occured.

The problem with Star Wars Expanded Universe is the same problem that occurs with role playing games that are attached to a game setting. Like AD&D has increasingly become over the decades. You know, every five minutes, Forgotten Realms was releasing a sourcebook with rules to account for some minor character in a novel who was a Moon Elf Handstand performer. And next thing you know, here are the rules to make a Moon Elf Handstander Prestige Class.

And it got to be the same for Star Wars shit. Dathomir Bitch-master prestige classes. Jedi Fighter pilot prestige classes. Bothan Spy-humper prestige classes. And the RPG is part of EU.

Of course, the rulebooks always say "The first rule is to have fun!" But the fun gets kinda drained out when half your players are all, "I wanna play a Gand Findsman because they have this kewl +2 bonus to penis-jerking!"

And it gets to the point that this same philosophy enters not just the gaming aspect, but the writing aspect. Suddenly, you see a glut of stories about really kewl clones who are all individualistic, and none of whom want to follow Order 66 and god-knows-what-else. And then, your only option is to, as SD said, stop buying EU shit.

Man. You know, I got the first book of the NJO series when it came out, and was laregly turned off by the story and the concepts. So I decided I was gonna pass on that series. I mean, I figured like most of the series, it would last maybe three books tops. And like, five, ten years later, the shit was finally over. I don't even know how long it was, but everytime I heard of a new book coming out it was NJO. I didn't buy SW novels in all that time, because they all seemed to focus on that nonsense with the Vong.

Okay.

So, when that shit's finally over, I pick up Legacy of the Force's first installment, and that reads like Retirement Home Heroes, with a major character deciding to go all evil mainly because some writer forgot to check out Yoda's thoughts on predicting the future.

I mean, after a while, you kinda get tired of your only SW fiction options being: "Don't buy the shit" and you start wondering how hard is it for these guys to be like papa and get a brand new bag...

We get that there are some clones out there who can resist orders or are sufficiently individualistic. But if every Clone is like that, it stops being special and interesting. It's like this weird RPGing philosophy applied to the writing.

[Strict31]

I think if writers never wrote in Clones disobeying Order 66 the idea of a group of heroic Clones is easier to swallow. During ROTS I just took it to be the Clones were genetically modified like the Jem Hadar to be obedient to Palpatine at all cost. Also made it easier to see people like them since you could think hey Cody was a good guy until Palpatine made him try and kill Obi-Wan. Now it looks like all the Clones are traitorous a-holes and it's hard to root for them like that. Maybe they are trying to show how the Clones are similar to Anakin in the fallen hero aspect?

Yes.

I think they may be trying to show how innocence is fucked over by the darker emotions associated with war and killing and all the shit the Dark Side gets all swole up on.

But I think it would go down better if they had instead done a story in which Kamino is hit by the enemy and their production/training facilities are knocked offline indefinitely. Then, you have a group of teenaged Clones, whose training and programming is not complete, who are forced to hit the frontlines before they're ready.

Follow that group of clones around and show how they develop as individuals absent of the indoctrination and so forth. I think that would have worked a lot better than what they chose to go with, because at a very important developmental stage of their existence, they're no longer getting the standardized inputs from a controlled, programmed environment, but rather, like any normal person, they're forced to react to stimulus from the world outside. And without those controls, they develop into their own men.

I mean, maybe I'm biased cuz it's my own idea, but I could get behind some shit like that.

[Nightfly]

The problem with Star Wars Expanded Universe is the same problem that occurs with role playing games that are attached to a game setting. Like AD&D has increasingly become over the decades. You know, every five minutes, Forgotten Realms was releasing a sourcebook with rules to account for some minor character in a novel who was a Moon Elf Handstand performer. And next thing you know, here are the rules to make a Moon Elf Handstander Prestige Class.

And it got to be the same for Star Wars shit. Dathomir Bitch-master prestige classes. Jedi Fighter pilot prestige classes. Bothan Spy-humper prestige classes. And the RPG is part of EU.

I think you and I just have differing opinions on this - I do take your point that EU prestige classes shouldn't be considered any kind of serious canon, but of course, neither should Tag & Bink. I guess it comes down to each fan picking 'n choosing which parts of George's sandbox they feel the most enthusiastic about. WotC's prestige classes were almost ridiculous & any fan considering them canonical would probably feel the wrath of my mockery.

Classes, thankfully, aren't a part of the HERO system. I find the vast majority of them dumb.

You've mentioned before not loving the fact that players all want the shiny new toy from whatever movie of the moment lights their fire(s). Me, I don't really give a crap. If everyone suddenly wants to be a Drow then we're off w/ a party of Drows. Guess how big wands became after the Harry Potter films hit - I personally didn't even see a Potter movie till the 3rd one.

I don't think you're wrong, I just subjectively disagree. Instead of everone wanting wands being tedious, it led me to research wands and overall kinda served to make wandage action (a.k.a. wand fu) more special, not less.
Drows need love like everything does.

[Nightfly]

Then, you have a group of teenaged Clones, whose training and programming is not complete, who are forced to hit the frontlines before they're ready.

That was kinda what this past week's Clone Wars epi was about. They were older than teens but hadn't been fully trained/programmed.

[Strict31]

That was kinda what this past week's Clone Wars epi was about. They were older than teens but hadn't been fully trained/programmed.

They had been fully trained and were as old as any other clone, but had yet to be in battle. That was the whole point of the episode; they were rookies.

[Strict31]

I think you and I just have differing opinions on this - I do take your point that EU prestige classes shouldn't be considered any kind of serious canon, but of course, neither should Tag & Bink. I guess it comes down to each fan picking 'n choosing which parts of George's sandbox they feel the most enthusiastic about. WotC's prestige classes were almost ridiculous & any fan considering them canonical would probably feel the wrath of my mockery.

Classes, thankfully, aren't a part of the HERO system. I find the vast majority of them dumb.

You've mentioned before not loving the fact that players all want the shiny new toy from whatever movie of the moment lights their fire(s). Me, I don't really give a crap. If everyone suddenly wants to be a Drow then we're off w/ a party of Drows. Guess how big wands became after the Harry Potter films hit - I personally didn't even see a Potter movie till the 3rd one.

I don't think you're wrong, I just subjectively disagree. Instead of everone wanting wands being tedious, it led me to research wands and overall kinda served to make wandage action (a.k.a. wand fu) more special, not less.
Drows need love like everything does.

But this ighnores the fact that there's a time and a place for everything. Again, if it's established that Drow running around on the surface are rare, and you have every party with at least one guy who wants to be a Drow then there's a problem, and the GM needs to put the kibosh on that shit, or the integrity of the setting is compromised.

Similarly, if everyone wants to be a mandalorian hunter in a time when they're all but extinct, then that compromises the integrity of the setting.

If you have an all drow or all mandalorian game or story in a backdrop where it makes sense to have a group composed of nothing but, then, it's all good. Like an Underdark campaign, or a story set during the time of the Mandalorian Wars. That makes sense.

[Nightfly]

They had been fully trained and were as old as any other clone, but had yet to be in battle. That was the whole point of the episode; they were rookies.

Are you sure about that? I only saw the epi once but I thought they'd skipped some stage of training? I'll undoubtedly watch it again soon enough to verify one way or the other.

But this ighnores the fact that there's a time and a place for everything.

I completely agree. It's up to the GM to establish an apporpriate time/setting/explanation for the adventure to make sense.

The Angel rpg comes to mind. Obviously, a primary conceit is that vamps w/ souls are ultra-rare, yet the book invites the purchaser to create as many as desired.
The Buffy rpg said the same about Slayers long before any talk of that in-canon possibility.

When it comes to actual rpg groups, I think such requests are par for the course. FTR, I side with your argument more than 90% of the time - for instance I haven't allowed any ensouled vamps & believe there's been requests.

[Strict31]

I completely agree. It's up to the GM to establish an apporpriate time/setting/explanation for the adventure to make sense.

The Angel rpg comes to mind. Obviously, a primary conceit is that vamps w/ souls are ultra-rare, yet the book invites the purchaser to create as many as desired.
The Buffy rpg said the same about Slayers long before any talk of that in-canon possibility.

When it comes to actual rpg groups, I think such requests are par for the course. FTR, I side with your argument more than 90% of the time - for instance I haven't allowed any ensouled vamps & believe there's been requests.

When we played Angel/Buffy, no one in the group even had the inkling to play as a vamp. The GM certainly wasn't the sort to allow vamps with souls anyway. We didn't even have any Slayers. It played out more like an amped-up World of Darkness campaign, with a couple of non-powered Hunters (one guy was, I think a part time fireman who killed shit with an axe). I played an egyptian mummy, and another guy played a sleazy tabloid reporter who worked for a National Equirer type rag, looking for the next Batboy story. Didn't have a Slayer or Vamp in the bunch.

I used to play the Star Wars RPG put out by West End Games. The first actual SW RPG. 1st edition and all that. The setting was very limited because at the time, there was no Expanded Universe; there were no Special Editions of the movies, and there were no prequels. Wookies were about as exotic as the average character concept ever got. Jedi were so exceedingly rare that they didn't even really have rules to efficiently govern them.

And the game hamstrung any characters or GMs who wanted to be involved in the story of the Rebellion, because that story pretty much already had its heroes. And if you didn't want to be involved in the story of the Rebellion, that was cool, but basically, that was pretty much the only setting available with the initial rulebook and sourcebook.

Ah well. This has nothing to do with the TV show, so...

[Nightfly]

When we played Angel/Buffy, no one in the group even had the inkling to play as a vamp. The GM certainly wasn't the sort to allow vamps with souls anyway. We didn't even have any Slayers. It played out more like an amped-up World of Darkness campaign, with a couple of non-powered Hunters (one guy was, I think a part time fireman who killed shit with an axe). I played an egyptian mummy, and another guy played a sleazy tabloid reporter who worked for a National Equirer type rag, looking for the next Batboy story. Didn't have a Slayer or Vamp in the bunch.

I used to play the Star Wars RPG put out by West End Games. The first actual SW RPG. 1st edition and all that. The setting was very limited because at the time, there was no Expanded Universe; there were no Special Editions of the movies, and there were no prequels. Wookies were about as exotic as the average character concept ever got. Jedi were so exceedingly rare that they didn't even really have rules to efficiently govern them.

And the game hamstrung any characters or GMs who wanted to be involved in the story of the Rebellion, because that story pretty much already had its heroes. And if you didn't want to be involved in the story of the Rebellion, that was cool, but basically, that was pretty much the only setting available with the initial rulebook and sourcebook.

Ah well. This has nothing to do with the TV show, so...

I almost bought a couple used West End Games books, but by that time I'd already heavily invested in the WotC stuff, and when flipping thru the pages I noted your point about how sparse their settings were.

I defer to the O.G. of SW rpg gaming! No can say you're not Old School.

[Zechs]

So another episode come's to pass.

I have to say the only real negative of the episode was the loud techno music when Anakin and Ahoska took on the assassin droids (also nice nod to IG-88) in that trader's ship. I understand why the music was there but it really took away from the scene which had some great moments.

Great battle scenes and again great twist how the battle turns to the Republic's favor against Grievous, whose tactic was ballsy and it sure cost him in the end since Anakin realized what direction he was coming from. Still awesome twist on how the battle turned.

Also that trader of droids is voiced by Ron Perlman isn't he? I almost didn't know it was him till he found R2 was up to no good and then I was like.. "noo that's.."

[sdsichero]

Did they give an inkling of why arthree was such a dimbulb? I was doing something else at the time so couldn't devote my full attention to it...

[Strict31]

Did they give an inkling of why arthree was such a dimbulb? I was doing something else at the time so couldn't devote my full attention to it...

My thinking is that he's the spy.

[Zechs]

My thinking is that he's the spy.

Eh he's just a droid who isn't superior to the shadow of R2-D2.

[Cat-Scratch]

I'm looking forward to when Ahsoka Tano and Asajj Ventress die.