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[Chamburger]

Metallica made a career by promising to stay underground? Huh? I thought they made a career by playing kick ass music and touring for ages in order bring Metallica to fans all over the world.

Jude, you're the only one here with half-truths. You have alot to say about this subject but all of it is that of a scorned jealous fan nature. I don't know why you think you're THE authority on Metallica. Have you talked to them, have you heard from their mouths why they've done what they've done, did you sit in when they made band decisions or are you just drawing your own conclusions to justify your hate towards them.

It's clearly the latter and no matter how many times you repeat yourself and type page long rants it's extremely easy to see through. If you want to be a hater then just be a hater, if you want to be a scorned fan who no longer likes their music then be that, but don't start talking all holier than thou like you were the fifth member and you know all their motivations and reasoning. You're not "in the know", you just have opinions. It makes you look like that kid in school that couldn't keep from telling tall tales when you pull that stuff. BTW, how old were you again during the Kill "Em All bootleg years?

[S.F. Jude Terror]

Metallica made a career by promising to stay underground? Huh? I thought they made a career by playing kick ass music and touring for ages in order bring Metallica to fans all over the world.

Jude, you're the only one here with half-truths. You have alot to say about this subject but all of it is that of a scorned jealous fan nature. I don't know why you think you're THE authority on Metallica. Have you talked to them, have you heard from their mouths why they've done what they've done, did you sit in when they made band decisions or are you just drawing your own conclusions to justify your hate towards them.

It's clearly the latter and no matter how many times you repeat yourself and type page long rants it's extremely easy to see through. If you want to be a hater then just be a hater, if you want to be a scorned fan who no longer likes their music then be that, but don't start talking all holier than thou like you were the fifth member and you know all their motivations and reasoning. You're not "in the know", you just have opinions. It makes you look like that kid in school that couldn't keep from telling tall tales when you pull that stuff. BTW, how old were you again during the Kill "Em All bootleg years?

I've had enough of people being mad at me today. Chill man. Remember, you WANTED to have this discussion, you know how I get! I hereby withdraw from this argument - I am not looking to make enemies.

[scott m davis]

I've had enough of people being mad at me today. Chill man. Remember, you WANTED to have this discussion, you know how I get! I hereby withdraw from this argument - I am not looking to make enemies.

Too late for that bitch!

I think everyone is a bad mood today. geez..

[ErickCruz]

Jude

Im not trying to make excuses for anyone, im just stating opinions that seem logical, they were teenagers who formed a rock band. If teenagers by themselves are rebellious imagine being in a rock band? That attitude only amplifies itself. And the fact they became successful only boosted that image.

By the time MoP and Justice came along they were THE metal band by which all metal bands were to be judged.
Metallica now just wasnt a small garage band, or a club band, they were gods, and a profitable enterprise.
One can only imagine the feeling they had when they realized "We're the shit!" I can't say that changed their attitude, but to you it's apparent it did change them.

As Cham said, you cant comment on decisions made by the band, you can only react as a fan. You felt hurt because they made videos? You felt hurt cause they wanted to be more popular? you felt hurt cause they went against their word back when they were teenagers?
Arent people allowed to change their minds?

Im not here to change your mind, you felt betrayed for something they promised many many years ago, probably in a drunken stupor.
Macho talk, pounding their chests.
You can't hold it against them for decisions they made as a band.
You felt betrayed, then i guess your passion for them was greater then mine is, i certainly didn't feel betrayed because they made videos, cut their hair, made music different than that of what made their great, you stick it out as a fan.
Otherwise, good riddance, we don't need you. And as evidence to that they still sell out every damn arena and stadium they play in.

I've had fights with my best friends, none of them slept with my girlfriend or stabbed me in the back so i dont know how that would feel until it happens, if you felt that level of intimacy with them to justify feeling betrayed, that's a just a bit creepy. MikeyG type creepy.

[Chamburger]

Metallica made a career by promising to stay underground? Huh? I thought they made a career by playing kick ass music and touring for ages in order bring Metallica to fans all over the world.

Jude, you're the only one here with half-truths. You have alot to say about this subject but all of it is that of a scorned jealous fan nature. I don't know why you think you're THE authority on Metallica. Have you talked to them, have you heard from their mouths why they've done what they've done, did you sit in when they made band decisions or are you just drawing your own conclusions to justify your hate towards them.

It's clearly the latter and no matter how many times you repeat yourself and type page long rants it's extremely easy to see through. If you want to be a hater then just be a hater, if you want to be a scorned fan who no longer likes their music then be that, but don't start talking all holier than thou like you were the fifth member and you know all their motivations and reasoning. You're not "in the know", you just have opinions. It makes you look like that kid in school that couldn't keep from telling tall tales when you pull that stuff. BTW, how old were you again during the Kill "Em All bootleg years?

I've had enough of people being mad at me today. Chill man. Remember, you WANTED to have this discussion, you know how I get! I hereby withdraw from this argument - I am not looking to make enemies.

You answered none of my questions dammit! Everything is chill dude, my response probably reads more tense than I actually meant it. But, when you start going for the low blows by calling people greedy pigs and whatnot you gotta expect others not to take to that too kindly. The only venom in these posts come from your's when you type stuff like that...

[S.F. Jude Terror]

Jude

Im not trying to make excuses for anyone, im just stating opinions that seem logical, they were teenagers who formed a rock band. If teenagers by themselves are rebellious imagine being in a rock band? That attitude only amplifies itself. And the fact they became successful only boosted that image.

By the time MoP and Justice came along they were THE metal band by which all metal bands were to be judged.
Metallica now just wasnt a small garage band, or a club band, they were gods, and a profitable enterprise.
One can only imagine the feeling they had when they realized "We're the shit!" I can't say that changed their attitude, but to you it's apparent it did change them.

As Cham said, you cant comment on decisions made by the band, you can only react as a fan. You felt hurt because they made videos? You felt hurt cause they wanted to be more popular? you felt hurt cause they went against their word back when they were teenagers?
Arent people allowed to change their minds?

Im not here to change your mind, you felt betrayed for something they promised many many years ago, probably in a drunken stupor.
Macho talk, pounding their chests.
You can't hold it against them for decisions they made as a band.
You felt betrayed, then i guess your passion for them was greater then mine is, i certainly didn't feel betrayed because they made videos, cut their hair, made music different than that of what made their great, you stick it out as a fan.
Otherwise, good riddance, we don't need you. And as evidence to that they still sell out every damn arena and stadium they play in.

I've had fights with my best friends, none of them slept with my girlfriend or stabbed me in the back so i dont know how that would feel until it happens, if you felt that level of intimacy with them to justify feeling betrayed, that's a just a bit creepy. MikeyG type creepy.

Except for when we're discussing them on this message board, I could care less about Metallica in any way. It just happened that, at the time they did what they did, I felt very strongly about the underground music scene, to the point where I disliked any bands that were mainstream. I'm not like that today, but I've just never forgiven Metallica for what, in my opinion, was possibly the biggest sellout of all time. Anyway, like I said, I'm done with this argument, I don't want anyone else pissed at me today, it is all in good fun for me when we talk about this stuff, even if I seem excited, I am just getting caught up in the spirit of the rant.

[S.F. Jude Terror]

Metallica made a career by promising to stay underground? Huh? I thought they made a career by playing kick ass music and touring for ages in order bring Metallica to fans all over the world.

Jude, you're the only one here with half-truths. You have alot to say about this subject but all of it is that of a scorned jealous fan nature. I don't know why you think you're THE authority on Metallica. Have you talked to them, have you heard from their mouths why they've done what they've done, did you sit in when they made band decisions or are you just drawing your own conclusions to justify your hate towards them.

It's clearly the latter and no matter how many times you repeat yourself and type page long rants it's extremely easy to see through. If you want to be a hater then just be a hater, if you want to be a scorned fan who no longer likes their music then be that, but don't start talking all holier than thou like you were the fifth member and you know all their motivations and reasoning. You're not "in the know", you just have opinions. It makes you look like that kid in school that couldn't keep from telling tall tales when you pull that stuff. BTW, how old were you again during the Kill "Em All bootleg years?

I've had enough of people being mad at me today. Chill man. Remember, you WANTED to have this discussion, you know how I get! I hereby withdraw from this argument - I am not looking to make enemies.

You answered none of my questions dammit! Everything is chill dude, my response probably reads more tense than I actually meant it. But, when you start going for the low blows by calling people greedy pigs and whatnot you gotta expect others not to take to that too kindly. The only venom in these posts come from your's when you type stuff like that...

Okay man, just wanted to make sure I wasn't offending you, I've made enough people mad today without intending to. So, to answer your questions then:

Metallica made a career by promising to stay underground? Huh? I thought they made a career by playing kick ass music and touring for ages in order bring Metallica to fans all over the world.

True, but they were doing this on the underground scene. They weren't touring under the support of a major label of while having their music played on radio stations. They were building their career in the underground, and they were supported by the underground fans. To be a part of an underground music scene is something you can only really understand if you've been part of one, but in this scene, the bands have a much closer relationship with their fans, they are playing in little clubs, hanging out with the fans after the show, and generally underground bands will consider the fans to be their equals, not some kind of royal subjects. Metallica played into this image, telling these fans that they would be underground forever, and yes, playing kick-ass music. As a result, without any major label support or radio play, the underground fans made Metallica one of the most successful underground bands every, probably on par with a mainstream band, which is amazing if you think about it, to happen with no radio play or corporate support. this is why it was considered such a betrayal when Metallica started becoming part of the system, making videos for MTV, making radio-friendly songs. It wasn't the radio or MTV that made Metallica so big, it was the underground, in direct defiance of the mainstream corporate traditions, that accomplished this. Metallica would never, ever have gotten where they were if they just started dropping by record companies with demos of hit the Lights. It was far to aggressive, awesome music for the mainstream. It was because they were so popular in the underground that record companies could not deny that Metallica had selling power, and had to sign them. now, this would have been fine, as everyone deserves to make money, but Metallica could have continued what they were doing, making aggressive music, staying true to all the things they said to their underground fans when they were trying to make it, but they didn't. They made more radio-friendly music, they made videos for MTV, they sold out. This angered the underground fans, because they supported Metallica because they were a part of it. Then Metallica took something that was not only theirs, but the fans as well, and perverted it. Most importantly, they went back on all these things they said.

Where was I when they were saying these things? On the other side of the magazine interviews and such where they were making them. I'm not making this stuff, it's documented, and if you don't believe me, I will search for some records of it and present it here. However, you can take my word for it, this isn't in my imagination, they said these things.

Is it speculation when I say that they did what they did for money? Certainly, but it's based on pretty solid reasoning. They kissed the underground fans asses when they couldn't get played on the radio. When the underground fans made them big enough to get played on the radio, they went back on everything they promised these fans before. Logical conclusion - they were out to make money form the get go, and didn't care about, to borrow a term from gangsta rap, "prepetratin'," or in other words, "posing" as an underground band to get where they wanted to be. They raped the underground scene, and it caused me to lose all respect for them. That's all.

Where was I during the Kill Em All bootleg Years? Actually, it was more like the "No Life Til Leather" demo years, and I was looking up to older cousins and such who were into the underground metal scene, as indeed I was a kid.

[Chamburger]

See, I knew you couldn't stay away...

Just don't name call, you come across alot more reasonable when you take the personal attacks out of your arguement!

[S.F. Jude Terror]

See, I knew you couldn't stay away...

Just don't name call, you come across alot more reasonable when you take the personal attacks out of your arguement!

Ha! I'm trying to think about what I say before it say it today.

[Chamburger]

Jude, are you saying you got into Underground metal through your older cousins at the age of 3 and by the age of 7 you had already felt betrayed and lied to by Metallica? Maybe your opinions have been skewed a bit by others and by your childhood perspective.

Can anyone here actually remember their tastes in music much less their thoughts on a "scene" at the age of 3...or even 7 for that matter?

I'm starting to smell something...

[S.F. Jude Terror]

Jude, are you saying you got into Underground metal through your older cousins at the age of 3 and by the age of 7 you had already felt betrayed and lied to by Metallica? Maybe your opinions have been skewed a bit by others and by your childhood perspective.

Can anyone here actually remember their tastes in music much less their thoughts on a "scene" at the age of 3...or even 7 for that matter?

I'm starting to smell something...

I'm saying I was aware of Metallica as a child, and by the time the Black Album came out, when I was twelve, I felt betrayed by them. And yes, my teenage perspective affected my attitudes about music at that time, which is why now, as I near 30, I don't only listen to obscure British punk bands. My attitudes about those sorts of things have matured. But that doesn't make them completely invalid, and while hating Green Day as the antithesis of all that was good about music because they claimed to be a punk band but were actually a pop band may have been immature and outrageous, not liking the fact that band promised to do one thing and then did the opposite it still perfectly reasonable.

Which does, however, bring up my great Green Day story. So Green Day were playing a show at Convention Hall in Asbury Park, and alot of people I knew were going there. I and my select group of friends, however, hated everything Green Day stood for because we were into the underground punk scene. So we headed over to Convention Hall as the show was ending, and waited in this hallway outside where the band leaves the venue and gets in their tour bus. Outside were all the screaming teeny-bopper Green Day fans, waiting for Billy Joe Armstrong to come out and sign autographs or whatever. So me and my friends are standing off to the side, all mohawks and studded leather and whatnot. First, the drummer of Green Day, who is apparantly named "Tre Cool," comes up to me and starts yapping about my GG Allin t-shirt. Apparantly he was impressed that his band had drawn some actual punk rockers to the show. Anyway, I had no clue who he was, so I blew him off. Finally, after waiting about an hour, Billy Joe comes out and heads for the tour bus. Near his bus are about a hundred fans screaming for him. Off to the side is us. I yell out, "Hey Billy Joe!" For one, perfect moment in time, he freezes in his steps and turns to loko at us, a look of "Ain't I cool" coming over his face as he is impressed with himself for having some real punk rock admirers instead of the pre-teen girls he mostly had as fans at the point. So I yell, "You fucking suck!" His jaw drops, he looks he's gonna cry, and he chucks his Coors Light bottle at me, missing by a mile. Then We laugh at him, and he scurries off onto the bus, no autographs tonight. It was great. Pure teenage stupidity, and there is an example of a case where I was being immature by hating on Green Day for being popular. Metallica is different.

Anyways, my band wrote a song about it. It went like this (marvel at the lyrical genius):

Down at Convention Hall
With all the posers from the mall
Green Day played a concert there
We showed them we didn't care!
Billy Joe Came walking out
all his fans began to shout
Jude told him that he sucked
Then he chucked his beer at us!

Bottle Targets, yes we are
Bottle Targets, near and far
Billy throws bottles at our heads
Wants to make punk rock dead (I know, that line's a gem)

The bottle landed at our feet
and we watched it smash
We looked up at Billy Joe
we started to laugh
Then he took one look at us
And ran onto his bus
I guess it's true what Jude says:
Green Day fucking sucks!

Repeat Chorus twice

Guitar Solo


So yeah, I'm not above teenage stupidity, I was quite an ass. In this case, however, I stand firm, Metallica sold out.

[Chamburger]

Feh...Greenday sucks, they sold out their punk rock roots for pop.

[S.F. Jude Terror]

Feh...Greenday sucks, they sold out their punk rock roots for pop.

Dammit Cham!

[Chamburger]

Hey, I was kinda being serious...at least with the first part.

[S.F. Jude Terror]

My preference was always for British Punk, Been listening to Inflammable Material by Stiff Little Fingers a lot lately, it's an incredible album.