The Outhouse - The Greatest Comic Book Forum

[Spidey-Man]

Khalid Sheikh Mohammed
Khalid Sheikh Mohammed was waterboarded while being interrogated by the CIA. According to the Bush administration, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed divulged information of tremendous value during his detention. He is said to have helped point the way to the capture of Riduan Isamuddin (AKA Hambali), the Indonesian terrorist responsible for the 2002 bombings of night clubs in Bali. According to the Bush administration, he also provided information on an Al Qaeda leader in England

"Waterboarding works", the former officer said. "Drowning is a baseline fear. So is falling. People dream about it. It’s human nature. Suffocation is a very scary thing. When you’re waterboarded, you’re inverted, so it exacerbates the fear. It’s not painful, but it scares the shit out of you". This former officer had been waterboarded himself in a training course. Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, he claimed, "didn’t resist. He sang right away. He cracked real quick". He said, "A lot of them want to talk. Their egos are unimaginable. [He] was just a little doughboy. He couldn't stand toe to toe and fight it out".[

[Spidey-Man]

Abu Zubaida
Abu Zubaida was also waterboarded by the CIA.[100]

In 2002, U.S. intelligence located Abu Zubayda by tracing his phone calls. He was captured March 28, 2002, in a safehouse located in a two story apartment in Faisalabad, Pakistan. While in U.S. custody, he was waterboarded,[101] and subsequently gave a great deal of information about the 9/11 attack plot. Such information was used by the Canadian government in seeking to uphold the "security certificate" of Mohamed Harkat. Participating in his interrogation were two American psychologists, James Elmer Mitchell and R. Scott Shumate.[

[Spidey-Man]

On September 14, 2007, ABC News reported that sometime in 2006 CIA Director Michael Hayden asked for and received permission from the Bush administration to ban the use of waterboarding in CIA interrogations.

[nietoperz]

On the one hand, I think that many people are proving shockingly innocent about the facts of this kind of thing: torture is nothing new and has been used as a tactic since time began, by all sides. War and conflict is a dirty business, plain and simple.

On the other, my biggest problem with it is this: for every bit of effective and useful information you glean, there is also a risk of people telling you whatever you want to hear just to make the torture stop. Many military authorities have expressed concern about the practice for this exact reason: it just isn't reliable enough.

[Spidey-Man]

That is true. That is why i generally only supported it, or don't disparage it, in the 2 or 3 yrs after 9/11 when it was clear our intelligence had virtually no knowledge of plans against our country.

though i still remain SHOCKED at some things that are considered torture. Like, apparently, a female military person putting her boobs in the face of an AL Qaeda detainee and smearing red paint on his forehead that she claimed was menstrual blood. Torture? some people pay good money for that

[nietoperz]

though i still remain SHOCKED at some things that are considered torture. Like, apparently, a female military person putting her boobs in the face of an AL Qaeda detainee and smearing red paint on his forehead that she claimed was menstrual blood. Torture? some people pay good money for that

It's a cultural thing. If they're that fundamentalist then it would be worse than waterboarding, to an extent. It's mental torture more than physical.

[Spidey-Man]

well you have to make people uncomfortable and scared when interogationg them. it's a no brainer that would be cultural. I wouldn't blast rock music at a head banger but a mozart fan....

In a normal situation, there are things that can be offered or threatened, in order to make a deal

but when one's crimes are so terrible, and when your dealing with someone who is probably willing to die for their beliefs, the same kind of deals/threats simply won't work.

and when your dealing with the possibility of catostrophic damage beyond the scale of the vast majority of regular criminal activity, you need info and quickly

and if you allow them to lawyer up, with this lack of an ability to make deals/threats, then there will be no information and you're fucked.

[Doc Jon]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7229169.stm

There's my source.

Could the CIA have lied? sure. But there's been no evidence that they have lied or that it was used on more people that i am aware of.

Its your burden to prove more, since its your assertion

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 03331.html


Sorry, but when the CIA is asking for written authorization from the President a year after they no longer used the technique, I call bullshit.

You believe it was used on 3 people and not since 2003. I think you're blind.

[achilles]

It's a cultural thing. If they're that fundamentalist then it would be worse than waterboarding, to an extent. It's mental torture more than physical.

You mean like all those fundementalist 9/11 hijackers who visited strip clubs and downed booze before they want all jihad??

I guess they were just into torturing themselves...

[Doc Jon]

And on the subject of Abu Ghraib, I think you're a bit blind as well.

You seriously believe that torture techniques and stress positions that the U.S. had previously tested just happened to be used at Abu Ghraib. It was just a bunch of rogue officers acting independently?

Then why ask that all photos and hard drives relating to the incidents be destroyed?

Why try to cover it up?

If it wasn't for one guy getting the wrong files, we may never have heard of Abu Ghraib.

There are numerous reports that point to the use of stress positions, sleep deprivation, etc was mandated by the Bush Administration for use in Afghanistan, Iraq and Guantanamo Bay.

And yet you'll still defend that Bush should never have to answer for any of this.

[Doc Jon]

You mean like all those fundementalist 9/11 hijackers who visited strip clubs and downed booze before they want all jihad??

I guess they were just into torturing themselves...

I torture myself as often as possible.

[GOSD]

No they don't. They don't deserve us being there risking American lives to try and make the country more stable.

That's the problem.

We're in war that despite Bush's assurances has started to become Vietnam. We are in a war that is already unpopular, and becoming increasingly so, a war where victory seems as elusive as it was in Vietnam. We are fighting for a people that don't want us there. We are losing soldiers for a war that was predicated on lies, fighting under a set of 'rules' that only serves to limit their effectivity.

Iraq isn't Vietnam. Stop using that in your argument.

[GOSD]

Bush should never have to answer for any of this.

He can't and won't.

[achilles]

I torture myself as often as possible.

As do I, just to test myself, to see how strong I am. Suprisingly, I fail, and then have to go back and do it all over again. Oh, the humanity!!

[Doc Jon]

Iraq isn't Vietnam. Stop using that in your argument.

There are parallels. And I'll use whatever points I feel are relevant to the situation, thank you.

Everything from Vietnam to World War 2 to the Civil War has been used in this thread, and to be honest, of those three wars, Vietnam bears the closest resemblance to Iraq.