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Artist Woes

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TimH

dINGO

Postby TimH » Wed Apr 08, 2015 11:54 pm

Scintillant-H wrote:Another woe: NOT BEING ABLE TO FIND THE RIGHT F***ING POSE!! :smt013 :smt013 :smt013

Can't tell you how LONG I went looking for a picture of a guy sitting in a chair a certain way


I fall down this rabbit whole a lot. The few times I've resorted to posing and photographing myself ended in misadventure--my characters tend to be thin and many are women. Whereas I have a paunch, thick legs, and hands larger than my female characters. I once tried to fake an action pose and wound up looking like a middle-aged fat man about to spill backwards.
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RageTH

A Quagmire

Postby RageTH » Thu Apr 09, 2015 4:49 am

Scintillant-H wrote:I think everyone goes through this, and SHOULD ALWAYS REMEMBER IT.

Mine, specifically, is more like;

1. This is so much fun! :D
2. Do I have time for this? (AKA: procrastination) :smt017
3. I don't know if I can do it... :-(
4. It's too late, I'm so lame that I blew the window of opportunity... :cry:
5. It won't be that bad, I can always laugh at my mistakes :groucho:
6. This is so much fun! :-D

Same formula, different perspective. Mine's more about general depression shit and it drains my motivation. I've had a hilarious idea ever since I read that OH article about they might be making the next Spider Man black, even scribbled concept sketches for it, but then procrastination hit. It's been sitting in my head since. Image



Mine is like this:

1. Hokay, lets do this!
2. Jeeze, this is hard.
3. This is getting worse and worse.
4. Why do I still do this?!
5. Huh, I'm done. Well, it's sorta what I was aiming for...
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Scintillant-H

#1,984 on Deathstroke's Hit List

Postby Scintillant-H » Wed Apr 15, 2015 10:48 am

I hate when someone tells me "you should sell your art." :roll: I could go on a huge-ass rant about this. I thought of selling my art long before anyone ever said it to me, and the first dozen times it was like "okay... they're trying to be nice, and I don't want to make them feel bad by pointing out that they just called me 'stupid', like I can't think of it myself, so I'll just say 'oh really?' and let it go." But these last few years I just want, more and more, to smack them with a brick. Seriously--just HOW stupid do people think other people are? And just HOW utterly stupid is someone who says "you should sell that" that they don't realize they're calling the artist stupid? Maybe phrase that differently, Einstein. :roll:

I'm just so sick of hearing people treat me like a moron. There are a lot of things I don't know, but the obvious, yeah, I think I can manage that.

I also hate when someone says "you should sell your art" and actually think it'd be EASY. "You have money problems? oh, just open commissions." Yeah, it's JUST that fucking easy to get customers... no. It's hell starting out, and even after you've been doing it a while, it's still impossible to make that your source of income. I just read an artist's personal venting a few days ago that their day job is cutting back on the hours they give employees and it's the financial strain is really starting to make bills hard to pay, since he doesn't get much in commissions--and he's a really good fucking artist!

Ask any artist, is it NOT easy to be an artist. You've got to have some kind of day job to make ends meet unless you're freakishly fucking famous and can/do charge a shitload per painting/drawing. Doing art commissions is not a financial solution, it's just an option.

I hate when someone suggests I take commissions. :smt013
a.) I'm not stupid
b.) I researched that shit first--try doing so yourself and see how hard it can be.

(rant over... for now :lol: )
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Chessack

Great Scott!!!

Postby Chessack » Wed Apr 15, 2015 7:15 pm

I don't think you should take a comment like, "Scint you should sell your artwork" to be implying you are ignorant or stupid. OK, maybe some idiots like Doodledweeb would mean it that way, but he's not someone you should pay attention to anyway.

When most people say it to an artist, we mean it as a compliment. We are saying that we think your art is so good that you could be doing this professionally. That to us, you are doing work that people should have to pay to see, because "free" stuff is usually equated with "not good enough that someone would want to buy it."

Take the computer art stuff I have talked about on my thread. There are multiple places to post 3D models for people to download. The big "free one" is "ShareCG". Other ones like Renderosity and DAZ3D require you to pay for the content. Guess which site has the best, highest quality content? It ain't ShareCG. In fact, most artists try to get their stuff hosted by DAZ or Rendo (or Poser's site, which I forget the name of), but the stuff is judged by the site admins to be not of sufficient quality to be worthy of purchase. The artist then either doesn't submit it at all, or submits it to ShareCG, which is unregulated.

Now, some artists don't think very highly of their own work. It's in many of our natures, mine for sure, to be humble about it, and to think, hell, no one would want to DL my mediocre stuff for free, let alone buy it. So they put it on ShareCG and figure if they get a DL a month it will be a lot. Then someone comes along and DLs the thing and finds it is a better model than 99% of what is on DAZ. So the person posts a comment saying, 'You should sell this on DAZ." It's not meant to imply that the person at ShareCG is stupid. It's meant as praise -- it is so good I should have to pay you for it.

Now, again, maybe some people don't mean it like that. Maybe some of them think you're stupid. But honestly I doubt it. I think most of them are just trying to pay you a compliment. After all, they are saying, "Scint, your artwork is so good that I think you should be able to earn a living from it." They are praising your work. Because hardly anyone who tries to create art is good enough to make a living at it.

Now, what you are saying is, even someone good enough to make a living at it often can't, just because luck plays so much more of a role than talent in the real world, and that's true, and that's the side of it that a non-artist doesn't see. But all this means is that the person is being naive, and probably not deliberately so.

After all, *I* think your artwork is outstanding. If I had a small publishing house and wanted to get a comic drawn, I'd hire you in a second to do my comic. Sadly I have no money to do such a thing... but I think your work is good enough to be done for-hire. That doesn't mean I think it's easy for you to find for-hire work - I know it's not. But I think it's good enough for it anyway. So at least when I say things like that -- to you, or to anyone else here -- I mean it as praise. And I think that's probably true of the VAST majority of people who have told you that you could be paid for your work.
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Scintillant-H

#1,984 on Deathstroke's Hit List

Postby Scintillant-H » Mon Apr 20, 2015 10:35 am

Chessack wrote:I don't think you should take a comment like, "Scint you should sell your artwork" to be implying you are ignorant or stupid. OK, maybe some idiots like Doodledweeb would mean it that way, but he's not someone you should pay attention to anyway.

When most people say it to an artist, we mean it as a compliment. We are saying that we think your art is so good that you could be doing this professionally. That to us, you are doing work that people should have to pay to see, because "free" stuff is usually equated with "not good enough that someone would want to buy it."

Take the computer art stuff I have talked about on my thread. There are multiple places to post 3D models for people to download. The big "free one" is "ShareCG". Other ones like Renderosity and DAZ3D require you to pay for the content. Guess which site has the best, highest quality content? It ain't ShareCG. In fact, most artists try to get their stuff hosted by DAZ or Rendo (or Poser's site, which I forget the name of), but the stuff is judged by the site admins to be not of sufficient quality to be worthy of purchase. The artist then either doesn't submit it at all, or submits it to ShareCG, which is unregulated.

Now, some artists don't think very highly of their own work. It's in many of our natures, mine for sure, to be humble about it, and to think, hell, no one would want to DL my mediocre stuff for free, let alone buy it. So they put it on ShareCG and figure if they get a DL a month it will be a lot. Then someone comes along and DLs the thing and finds it is a better model than 99% of what is on DAZ. So the person posts a comment saying, 'You should sell this on DAZ." It's not meant to imply that the person at ShareCG is stupid. It's meant as praise -- it is so good I should have to pay you for it.

Now, again, maybe some people don't mean it like that. Maybe some of them think you're stupid. But honestly I doubt it. I think most of them are just trying to pay you a compliment. After all, they are saying, "Scint, your artwork is so good that I think you should be able to earn a living from it." They are praising your work. Because hardly anyone who tries to create art is good enough to make a living at it.

Now, what you are saying is, even someone good enough to make a living at it often can't, just because luck plays so much more of a role than talent in the real world, and that's true, and that's the side of it that a non-artist doesn't see. But all this means is that the person is being naive, and probably not deliberately so.

After all, *I* think your artwork is outstanding. If I had a small publishing house and wanted to get a comic drawn, I'd hire you in a second to do my comic. Sadly I have no money to do such a thing... but I think your work is good enough to be done for-hire. That doesn't mean I think it's easy for you to find for-hire work - I know it's not. But I think it's good enough for it anyway. So at least when I say things like that -- to you, or to anyone else here -- I mean it as praise. And I think that's probably true of the VAST majority of people who have told you that you could be paid for your work.

Don't worry, I know 90% of everyone who says that to me is only trying to deliver a compliment, the issue I have is hearing the same thing over and over and over and over. And then some more. :roll: I feel like a robot having to replay the same kind of reaction to keep from hurting the other person's feelings, and after the first dozen times it gets frustrating. It's kind of like ,if someone asked you to do something and you do it then they say "are you sure you did it?" chances are, they're not trying to insult you, but they're basically saying you're lying about having done something.

Reading between the lines is actually a girl thing as a natural reaction. It's how other, smarter, girls treat other girls in school when the others are too young to realize it's manipulation and so they fall for it---we end up programmed to read between the lines that way unfortunately :roll: It's part of us anyway, with the emotional crap evolution put in us, but when we go through the shit in school that does give us "experience." Of course, those of us who REALLY learn from that don't let it guide our decisions about others who "seem" to be insulting us, but that doesn't stop the old instincts from surfacing; "when they say this, they really mean this..." However, even people who don't have that in them or didn't practically live the movie "Mean Girls" in school can see the implications after hearing the same thing over and over. Even if they don't see the unintended insult, they do still get tired of hearing it and repeating themselves all the time. Unless they're egotisitcal and just love hearing "wow, man, you're so good, you should make a living off that" constantly.

It's really not that we don't like a compliment, it's just the repetition and that some of us aren't totally full of ourselves that we get off on it.
(I never thought you, personally, were insulting me ;) or really anyone here on OH)
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SuperginraiX

Outhouse Editor

Postby SuperginraiX » Mon Apr 20, 2015 10:48 am

Scintillant-H wrote:An. Art. Teacher. Oh hell, that's infantile bullshit :lol:

I once had a fine art teacher who told me that my art looked like illustration but in a good way.

There was a definite division between the fine arts and graphic design arts at my college. Like the fine art instructors didn't really like having a graphic design program (the major was all but hidden away) but didn't mind the influx of funding that came from it. Good times.
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SuperginraiX

Outhouse Editor

Postby SuperginraiX » Mon Apr 20, 2015 10:52 am

Scintillant-H wrote:I think everyone goes through this, and SHOULD ALWAYS REMEMBER IT.

Mine, specifically, is more like;

1. This is so much fun! :D
2. Do I have time for this? (AKA: procrastination) :smt017
3. I don't know if I can do it... :-(
4. It's too late, I'm so lame that I blew the window of opportunity... :cry:
5. It won't be that bad, I can always laugh at my mistakes :groucho:
6. This is so much fun! :-D


Holy Crap I've been stuck on 4 for a long time. :(
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Chessack

Great Scott!!!

Postby Chessack » Mon Apr 20, 2015 3:45 pm

Scintillant-H wrote:I feel like a robot having to replay the same kind of reaction to keep from hurting the other person's feelings, and after the first dozen times it gets frustrating.


I understand that, but just remember, to the person saying it... it's the first time they've said it. They can't know that a bunch of other people have said it to you before.

Also remember, if you're told over and over again by multiple people that your art is so good they think you could sell it for money, it's because your art is really, really good. People wouldn't say it if your art was as bad as, well... mine. Because trust me, no one has EVER told me I could sell my artwork, or draw professionally. ;)
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Scintillant-H

#1,984 on Deathstroke's Hit List

Postby Scintillant-H » Fri Apr 24, 2015 11:08 am

Chessack wrote:
I understand that, but just remember, to the person saying it... it's the first time they've said it. They can't know that a bunch of other people have said it to you before.

Also remember, if you're told over and over again by multiple people that your art is so good they think you could sell it for money, it's because your art is really, really good. People wouldn't say it if your art was as bad as, well... mine. Because trust me, no one has EVER told me I could sell my artwork, or draw professionally. ;)

Keep up with that 3D work, and it'll get good enough to warrant selling. :wink: Topo just found out that fanart sells way better than original works. :drunk
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Scintillant-H

#1,984 on Deathstroke's Hit List

Postby Scintillant-H » Sat Apr 25, 2015 10:43 am

One woe of being a decent artist is that other artists who maybe aren't as good as you (or they don't think they are, even if they are) don't want to show you their work because they don't think it can hold up to yours. I love seeing other people's art, I don't care about the lines being straight or it looking "as good as mine" or some shit like that. Seeing someone's drawing is seeing their thoughts and lovlies come to life--as an artist, I WANT to see that from others. To know that my own work makes others feel 'not good enough' is almost enough to make me want to not post anything anywhere.

Of course, limiting oneself needlessly to cater to other's insecurities is stupid and I could never support that kind of thing, but I've sometimes wondered "geeze, I wish they didn't know I was an artist..." I love sharing, when I can get around my own angst, but I wish others I knew shared more.

It's one thing I like about being on an art site like deviantART, even though it's gone WAY downhill, to the point that many have left it and many others who stay for friends want to leave it. At least it's a site with a lot of artists and, despite shitty management and faulty coding on and off with tons of community-hated changes, at least I can feel comfortable that there are other artists of varrying skill level who are usually quite willing to share with everyone mostly with no shame (except when showing less than their personal best--lots of people are ashamed of their prototype sketches, though I don't really understand that :smt102 ).
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Rebirth NoctourneM

Rain Partier

Postby Rebirth NoctourneM » Sat Apr 25, 2015 11:18 am

Scintillant-H wrote:One woe of being a decent artist is that other artists who maybe aren't as good as you (or they don't think they are, even if they are) don't want to show you their work because they don't think it can hold up to yours. I love seeing other people's art, I don't care about the lines being straight or it looking "as good as mine" or some shit like that. Seeing someone's drawing is seeing their thoughts and lovlies come to life--as an artist, I WANT to see that from others. To know that my own work makes others feel 'not good enough' is almost enough to make me want to not post anything anywhere.

Of course, limiting oneself needlessly to cater to other's insecurities is stupid and I could never support that kind of thing, but I've sometimes wondered "geeze, I wish they didn't know I was an artist..." I love sharing, when I can get around my own angst, but I wish others I knew shared more.

It's one thing I like about being on an art site like deviantART, even though it's gone WAY downhill, to the point that many have left it and many others who stay for friends want to leave it. At least it's a site with a lot of artists and, despite shitty management and faulty coding on and off with tons of community-hated changes, at least I can feel comfortable that there are other artists of varrying skill level who are usually quite willing to share with everyone mostly with no shame (except when showing less than their personal best--lots of people are ashamed of their prototype sketches, though I don't really understand that :smt102 ).


It's because we had a shitty art teacher/ critic and now we're very self conscious about our art. Also we might have time management issues and have trouble finishing pieces.
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Scintillant-H

#1,984 on Deathstroke's Hit List

Postby Scintillant-H » Sat Apr 25, 2015 11:26 am

NoctourneM wrote:
It's because we had a shitty art teacher/ critic and now we're very self conscious about our art. Also we might have time management issues and have trouble finishing pieces.

The time thing I understand, it's when they just don't post because they feel intimidated that I hang my head. I never minded my art teacher being 'rough', but yeah, the crappy teachers who don't know what the fuck they're doing really shouldn't trash regular people's mindsets. :smt013 they're normals, dammit! they can't take it. :smt011 they need gentler handing. That's like if I went into combat training, I sure as hell wasn't made for it, and chances are, I'd need different handling than someone who was just built for that shit.
... then again, as an artist, I'm just naturally harsh on myself... maybe my attempt at an example sucked :smt017 :oops:
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Chessack

Great Scott!!!

Postby Chessack » Sat Apr 25, 2015 1:28 pm

I love seeing the (often incredible) work the people here do, but I can understand why they don't want to or are reluctant to share. Look at how Doodles treated people... the guy put out scribbly, unintelligible sketches, and wrote like a nine-year-old, then brought the hammer down on everyone else. Your skin was thick enough to take it, and I just put him on ignore. But some people might have really been hurt by his nasty, hyper-critical comments. Posting your stuff makes you vulnerable. Not everyone wants to be vulnerable. It doesn't just happen to artists. Happens to writers too. Heck, even scientists... I have known some really excellent scientists who do amazing work, but then never submit it for publication because they fear rejection.

Fear of rejection can be a very powerful thing. If coupled with powerful self-criticism.... you can easily see how someone might never share his or her work.
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Capt. Lewis n Clark

Motherfucker from Hell

Postby Capt. Lewis n Clark » Sun Apr 26, 2015 1:18 pm

NoctourneM wrote:In summary it appears most of our woes come from crappy art teachers. :smt011

I'm late to the thread, but want to add my experience. I didn't have crappy teachers. They were all great, and very accomplished in their respective fields. Painting from Jules Kirschenbaum, color theory from Florence Kawa, studio drawing and art history from Gaylord Torrence, and lettering and design from Stan Hess among others.

My problem was in trying to please clients. I studied graphic design and commercial art, and got a degree that I rarely use. I'd design a letterhead or a logo, and they'd say stupid shit like, "Um...can the trees be blue?" Or, "Can we use a really ornate script font?" that no one can read. I got tired of being a starving artist pounding the pavement with a portfolio under my arm looking for my next gig. Much easier to stay in retail where I quickly moved up the ranks and made a decent living.
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Scintillant-H

#1,984 on Deathstroke's Hit List

Postby Scintillant-H » Fri May 01, 2015 10:41 am

Chessack wrote:I love seeing the (often incredible) work the people here do, but I can understand why they don't want to or are reluctant to share. Look at how Doodles treated people... the guy put out scribbly, unintelligible sketches, and wrote like a nine-year-old, then brought the hammer down on everyone else. Your skin was thick enough to take it, and I just put him on ignore. But some people might have really been hurt by his nasty, hyper-critical comments. Posting your stuff makes you vulnerable. Not everyone wants to be vulnerable. It doesn't just happen to artists. Happens to writers too. Heck, even scientists... I have known some really excellent scientists who do amazing work, but then never submit it for publication because they fear rejection.

Fear of rejection can be a very powerful thing. If coupled with powerful self-criticism.... you can easily see how someone might never share his or her work.

This is the very reason I sometimes feel like not sharing--because I know others are effected by it that they don't want to share due to having been beaten down by others in life.

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