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To be, or Not To Be...Published that is!

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Re: To be, or Not To Be...Published that is!

Postby Frag » Fri Dec 23, 2011 7:07 pm

J.M. Hunter wrote:

Hold on.

Bendis can draw. What are you talking about?

Savage Dragon sucks?

C'mon man.
You're trolling now.


No. Bendis thought he could draw. He went to Quesada as an artist/writer and Quesada shot him down. Now he writes. It's turned out pretty well for him.

Quesada and Bendis then recounted their first phone conversation when the former was editing the Marvel Knights line. He'd received a packet of Bendis' indie work from David Mack, and when Bendis asked for any artistic work on the Knights line, Quesada paused and said, "You know your art sucks, right?" But that conversation led to Bendis taking up writing as a full time pursuit.


Savage Dragon does suck IMO.
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Re: To be, or Not To Be...Published that is!

Postby achilles » Fri Dec 23, 2011 7:08 pm

Arion wrote:
Excellent. Thanks for the link Rebis.


Ditto, it's very helpful.
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Re: To be, or Not To Be...Published that is!

Postby Victorian Squid » Fri Dec 23, 2011 7:08 pm

J.M. Hunter wrote:
Well that's kind of the trick isn't it?


Do you do your own work geared towards Submission policies?

or

Do you just do your own work, then find the policies and publishers that best fit you?


You're looking at it wrong.

I think it's more about how you present the work you've done to a prospective publisher, or intend to do, than how it affects the work itself. The details of submission policies are important to just get into the door and stay out of the trash bin. But they are sticklers about them, each and every one of them. And most of what they get goes straight in the garbage as a result.

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Re: To be, or Not To Be...Published that is!

Postby Frag » Fri Dec 23, 2011 7:11 pm

Doc Spider wrote:
You think some of those projects would have been the same if the art sucked?

You think Image would have given serious thought to Invincible without Walker's art in the submissions package?

I'm not detracting from the role of writers, but there are a million billion dollar ideas out there. Everyone thinks that their idea is the ONE that will make billions and be licensed and so on. Everyone. Every writer thinks that their take on Superman is the freshest most unique take.

Most artists end up getting burned. And most writers aren't as good as they think they are either.


I don't know what Image would have done without Walker, but my point stands that what if Walker thought he was too good to do art for this Kirkman guy when he had an even cooler story concept that he created.

As far as writing goes, writers need to learn that the key isn't the idea, it's the discipline. Most people who write are disciplined people. Writers have too many problems to list. The first being that they think an idea is enough.
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Re: To be, or Not To Be...Published that is!

Postby J.M. Hunter » Fri Dec 23, 2011 7:17 pm

Rebis wrote:
You're looking at it wrong.

I think it's more about how you present the work you've done to a prospective publisher, or intend to do, than how it affects the work itself. The details of submission policies are important to just get into the door and stay out of the trash bin. But they are sticklers about them, each and every one of them. And most of what they get goes straight in the garbage as a result.



Well I guess I'll find out if I'm doing it wrong. I tend to look at projects that I can also self-publish if they don't make it into companies interests. I agree with the presentation part of your message. I mean you'd have to be an idiot to do the opposite of what the sub guidelines specifically lay out for you. That's like bedazzling your portfolio before you send it into a high profile art college. Sparkly's and shit.

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Re: To be, or Not To Be...Published that is!

Postby Doc Jon » Fri Dec 23, 2011 7:17 pm

The President wrote:
I don't know what Image would have done without Walker, but my point stands that what if Walker thought he was too good to do art for this Kirkman guy when he had an even cooler story concept that he created.

As far as writing goes, writers need to learn that the key isn't the idea, it's the discipline. Most people who write are disciplined people. Writers have too many problems to list. The first being that they think an idea is enough.


And I'm saying your attitude towards artists won't help you in procuring one.

Again, for a new concept, you're talking weeks to months of prep work, then about a month an issue. All for the promise of money down the line if the concept succeeds. Talk to artists, you'll find many of them have been burned by such promises.
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Re: To be, or Not To Be...Published that is!

Postby Doc Jon » Fri Dec 23, 2011 7:20 pm

Let's see, for a sequentilal page depending on the detail, it probably takes me 8-10 hours of work. This doesn't count prep work.

At below minimum wage prices, let's say that's $40 a page. Most artists would be lucky to see half that, but they're expected to somehow do it for less because drawing is supposed to be fun and not a job. :wink:
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Re: To be, or Not To Be...Published that is!

Postby J.M. Hunter » Fri Dec 23, 2011 7:21 pm

Doc Spider wrote:
And I'm saying your attitude towards artists won't help you in procuring one.

Again, for a new concept, you're talking weeks to months of prep work, then about a month an issue. All for the promise of money down the line if the concept succeeds. Talk to artists, you'll find many of them have been burned by such promises.


Jon speaks the truth.

There's whole forums with TOS now that are devoted to making sure artists don't get a bum deal anymore. That includes Tattoo artists, graphic designers, comic book artists, illustrators, as well.

Pretty soon you'll have the knitting club unionized as well.

You gotta come with something more substantial than just a good idea.

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Re: To be, or Not To Be...Published that is!

Postby Frag » Fri Dec 23, 2011 7:22 pm

Doc Spider wrote:
And I'm saying your attitude towards artists won't help you in procuring one.

Again, for a new concept, you're talking weeks to months of prep work, then about a month an issue. All for the promise of money down the line if the concept succeeds. Talk to artists, you'll find many of them have been burned by such promises.


Firstly, it's not like I'm going to call up an artist and tell him this stuff. :lol:

And I know artists have been burned. I'm sure it happens a lot. I'm just saying that in many cases though, the artists are shortsighted in terms of indie comics. They expect to show their art to someone and get paid, but that's not always how it works. Many also look down on a writer, when they would be smart to find one.
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Re: To be, or Not To Be...Published that is!

Postby J.M. Hunter » Fri Dec 23, 2011 7:23 pm

"Okay so I came across this at a graphic design forum and maybe it's time the rest of the world understood this as well. The stuff below in tone might sound a little dickish, but the essence is spot on. I mean constant free work doesn't pay the bills or put clothes on my kids....unless I'm doing it all wrong. Maybe you other artists can enlighten me? I posted the forum link below and copied and pasted the original message.
-Hunter

http://www.graphicdesignforum.com/forum ... hp?t=23924

"note: I did not write this, but I totally agree with what it has to say. I saw this on Digg.com today and Craigslist has already taken it down, read it and take it to heart.

The Post
------------------------
Every day, there are more and more Craigs List posts seeking “artists” for everything from auto graphics to comic books to corporate logo designs. More people are finding themselves in need of some form of illustrative service.

But what they’re NOT doing, unfortunately, is realizing how rare someone with these particular talents can be.

To those who are “seeking artists”, let me ask you; How many people do you know, personally, with the talent and skill to perform the services you need? A dozen? Five? One? …none?

More than likely, you don’t know any. Otherwise, you wouldn’t be posting on craigslist to find them.

And this is not really a surprise.

In this country, there are almost twice as many neurosurgeons as there are professional illustrators. There are eleven times as many certified mechanics. There are SEVENTY times as many people in the IT field.

So, given that they are less rare, and therefore less in demand, would it make sense to ask your mechanic to work on your car for free? Would you look him in the eye, with a straight face, and tell him that his compensation would be the ability to have his work shown to others as you drive down the street?

Would you offer a neurosurgeon the “opportunity” to add your name to his resume as payment for removing that pesky tumor? (Maybe you could offer him “a few bucks” for “materials”. What a deal!)

Would you be able to seriously even CONSIDER offering your web hosting service the chance to have people see their work, by viewing your website, as their payment for hosting you?

If you answered “yes” to ANY of the above, you’re obviously insane. If you answered “no”, then kudos to you for living in the real world.

But then tell me… why would you think it is okay to live out the same, delusional, ridiculous fantasy when seeking someone whose abilities are even less in supply than these folks?

Graphic artists, illustrators, painters, etc., are skilled tradesmen. As such, to consider them as, or deal with them as, anything less than professionals fully deserving of your respect is both insulting and a bad reflection on you as a sane, reasonable person. In short, it makes you look like a twit.

A few things you need to know;

1. It is not a “great opportunity” for an artist to have his work seen on your car/’zine/website/bedroom wall, etc. It IS a “great opportunity” for YOU to have their work there.

2. It is not clever to seek a “student” or “beginner” in an attempt to get work for free. It’s ignorant and insulting. They may be “students”, but that does not mean they don’t deserve to be paid for their hard work. You were a “student” once, too. Would you have taken that job at McDonalds with no pay, because you were learning essential job skills for the real world? Yes, your proposition it JUST as stupid.

3. The chance to have their name on something that is going to be seen by other people, whether it’s one or one million, is NOT a valid enticement. Neither is the right to add that work to their “portfolio”. They get to do those things ANYWAY, after being paid as they should. It’s not compensation. It’s their right, and it’s a given.

4. Stop thinking that you’re giving them some great chance to work. Once they skip over your silly ad, as they should, the next ad is usually for someone who lives in the real world, and as such, will pay them. There are far more jobs needing these skills than there are people who possess these skills.

5. Students DO need “experience”. But they do NOT need to get it by giving their work away. In fact, this does not even offer them the experience they need. Anyone who will not/can not pay them is obviously the type of person or business they should be ashamed to have on their resume anyway. Do you think professional contractors list the “experience” they got while nailing down a loose step at their grandmother’s house when they were seventeen?

If you your company or gig was worth listing as desired experience, it would be able to pay for the services it received. The only experience they will get doing free work for you is a lesson learned in what kinds of scrubs they should not lower themselves to deal with.

6. (This one is FOR the artists out there, please pay attention.) Some will ask you to “submit work for consideration”. They may even be posing as some sort of “contest”. These are almost always scams. They will take the work submitted by many artists seeking to win the “contest”, or be “chosen” for the gig, and find what they like most. They will then usually have someone who works for them, or someone who works incredibly cheap because they have no originality or talent of their own, reproduce that same work, or even just make slight modifications to it, and claim it as their own. You will NOT be paid, you will NOT win the contest. The only people who win, here, are the underhanded folks who run these ads. This is speculative, or “spec”, work. It’s risky at best, and a complete scam at worst. I urge you to avoid it, completely. For more information on this subject, please visit www.no-spec.com.

So to artists/designers/illustrators looking for work, do everyone a favor, ESPECIALLY yourselves, and avoid people who do not intend to pay you. Whether they are “spec” gigs, or just some guy who wants a free mural on his living room walls. They need you. You do NOT need them.

And for those who are looking for someone to do work for free… please wake up and join the real world. The only thing you’re accomplishing is to insult those with the skills you need. Get a clue.
"

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Re: To be, or Not To Be...Published that is!

Postby Frag » Fri Dec 23, 2011 7:23 pm

J.M. Hunter wrote:
Jon speaks the truth.

There's whole forums with TOS now that are devoted to making sure artists don't get a bum deal anymore. That includes Tattoo artists, graphic designers, comic book artists, illustrators, as well.

Pretty soon you'll have the knitting club unionized as well.

You gotta come with something more substantial than just a good idea.


I don't disagree with that.

All I'm saying is that many artists think that writing isn't a skill and that anyone can do it, including themselves.
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Re: To be, or Not To Be...Published that is!

Postby J.M. Hunter » Fri Dec 23, 2011 7:24 pm

I've seen some writer like messages as well..

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Re: To be, or Not To Be...Published that is!

Postby J.M. Hunter » Fri Dec 23, 2011 7:25 pm

The President wrote:
I don't disagree with that.

All I'm saying is that many artists think that writing isn't a skill and that anyone can do it, including themselves.


Hmm...not sure about it. I know I can do both. Now...breeding dogs? I'm not so sure...

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Re: To be, or Not To Be...Published that is!

Postby Frag » Fri Dec 23, 2011 7:28 pm

See the way I see it though is that if I'm paying an artist to draw my script, then they get nothing if it sells, because I end up taking all the risk. That's where I think the disconnect is.

Unless that artist becomes my friend, they get nothing after I pay them.
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Frag It wrote::smt117


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Re: To be, or Not To Be...Published that is!

Postby Doc Jon » Fri Dec 23, 2011 7:31 pm

The President wrote:See the way I see it though is that if I'm paying an artist to draw my script, then they get nothing if it sells, because I end up taking all the risk. That's where I think the disconnect is.

Unless that artist becomes my friend, they get nothing after I pay them.


Again, good luck finding an artist. Unless you're willing to pay Marvel or DC page rates.
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