The Outhouse - The Greatest Comic Book Forum

by **Stalzer2002** » Thu Apr 26, 2012 1:26 pm

Sakie wrote:
In defense of John's, whether you like his writing or not, the man is getting to write and shape the futures of his favorite characters. Maybe he hasn't attempted to branch out because he genuinely enjoys the work he is doing at DC. I don't see any reason to criticize him or really any of the other people on your list for not branching out from the Big 2.

I disagree. There are a lot of industry legends who suffered greatly in their later years because they didn't own anything that they created. They got to write and shape those characters too, but when they got sick, doing so didn't pay their medical bills. With today's creators, you can't find very many major writers who haven't learned that lesson. No one will argue that people like Kurt Busiek, Peter David and Mark Waid don't enjoy working for the big two and never considered it a lifelong dream to work in those universes. But like nearly every other writer, they've done their own work to take care of themselves, to take care of their families and even to stretch their creative muscles beyond the bubble of the big two. Geoff Johns is nearly alone in regards to not doing those things. I think that is more than valid to look at him and ask whether he's too stupid to understand the need to own something yourself, or simply not creative enough to craft something on his own.

by **Cat-Scratch** » Thu Apr 26, 2012 1:33 pm

Jubilee wrote:Well it's kicking off. I've been predicting it for years, but it seems to be speeding up. Before Watchmen seems to have put the cat among the pigeons.

There are creators who are turning their back on the creatively bankrupt blackhole that is Marvel and DC. They've said no to Avengers v X-men, they've said no to the Ultimate U/616 crossover. They've said no to reboots, crisis' and Before Watchmen, and they're producing some fantastic work.

Leading the field are creators like:

Mark Millar,
Robert Kirkman,
Mike Mignola
Alan Moore
and Chris Roberson.

If you haven't noticed btw, these are creators who've all surpassed most comic writers today in terms of getting their work seen. They don't need to write Avengers #593 or Justice League Returns part 4 or 8 tying into the Reborn Universe crossover coming next year.

They've furthered their careers by leaving behind a cesspool of mediocrity.

This thread is a celebration of these writers. I hope others join them soon (I'm looking at you Bru and Bendis)

Who do you think will be next to go?

YES!! YES!! PLEASE GO BENDIS!!! GO NOW!!! DO NOT RETURN!!!

by **BubbaKanoosh** » Thu Apr 26, 2012 1:35 pm

Secret Service sucks goat scroat

by **spidertour02** » Thu Apr 26, 2012 1:43 pm

Jubilee wrote:People should want to tell a good story, I can not for the life of me figure out what makes Spider-man different from 100 other properties.

People actually read Spider-Man. If a tree falls in the forest, etc. etc.

by **Stalzer2002** » Thu Apr 26, 2012 1:44 pm

BubbaKanoosh wrote:Secret Service sucks goat scroat

Man, wait 'till Fox News hears that.

by **BlueStreak** » Thu Apr 26, 2012 1:48 pm

Stalzer2002 wrote:
I disagree. There are a lot of industry legends who suffered greatly in their later years because they didn't own anything that they created. They got to write and shape those characters too, but when they got sick, doing so didn't pay their medical bills. With today's creators, you can't find very many major writers who haven't learned that lesson. No one will argue that people like Kurt Busiek, Peter David and Mark Waid don't enjoy working for the big two and never considered it a lifelong dream to work in those universes. But like nearly every other writer, they've done their own work to take care of themselves, to take care of their families and even to stretch their creative muscles beyond the bubble of the big two. Geoff Johns is nearly alone in regards to not doing those things. I think that is more than valid to look at him and ask whether he's too stupid to understand the need to own something yourself, or simply not creative enough to craft something on his own.

Johns is also an executive with the company, a producer on multiple entertainment products (which he presumably sees some money from) and probably has a decent 401K plan. It's not like the man is a career work-for-hire creator, which is precisely what hurt a lot of the creators struggling to pay bills and whatnot.

by **Cat-Scratch** » Thu Apr 26, 2012 1:56 pm

Stalzer2002 wrote:I disagree. There are a lot of industry legends who suffered greatly in their later years because they didn't own anything that they created. They got to write and shape those characters too, but when they got sick, doing so didn't pay their medical bills. With today's creators, you can't find very many major writers who haven't learned that lesson. No one will argue that people like Kurt Busiek, Peter David and Mark Waid don't enjoy working for the big two and never considered it a lifelong dream to work in those universes. But like nearly every other writer, they've done their own work to take care of themselves, to take care of their families and even to stretch their creative muscles beyond the bubble of the big two. Geoff Johns is nearly alone in regards to not doing those things. I think that is more than valid to look at him and ask whether he's too stupid to understand the need to own something yourself, or simply not creative enough to craft something on his own.

BlueMole wrote:Johns is also an executive with the company, a producer on multiple entertainment products (which he presumably sees some money from) and probably has a decent 401K plan. It's not like the man is a career work-for-hire creator, which is precisely what hurt a lot of the creators struggling to pay bills and whatnot.

Screw all those people who working to pay bills that don't work in comics writing or drawing them. They are not "creators" and deserve nothing more. Like all those who worked during the 30s, 40s, 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s, etc.....

by **Chris** » Thu Apr 26, 2012 1:57 pm

And people are probably not as stupid these days and check their contracts before signing them.

by **Punchy** » Thu Apr 26, 2012 2:00 pm

Holland Oats wrote:And people are probably not as stupid these days and check their contracts before signing them.

Don't start this again!

by **Royal Nonesuch** » Thu Apr 26, 2012 2:03 pm

Twigglet is right about everything, as usual.

by **Punchy** » Thu Apr 26, 2012 2:07 pm

I honestly think the best way is for a creator to do both corporate superheroes and their creator-owned stuff. I enjoy all of Ultimate Spider-Man, Avengers, Brilliant and Powers. I love Criminal etc but I also love Winter Soldier. Casanova is amazing, but Defenders is also great. Animal Man is brilliant, but so is Sweet Tooth. Doing both types of comics is beneficial for pretty much everyone, as it's sadly the case that the majority of creator-owned comics don't make that much money, we're only getting Phonogram 3 later in the year because Gillen and McKelvie can afford to spend the time making it thanks to the money they've made working for Marvel. Plus, putting 'from the writer of Captain America' or whatever on the front of your creator-owned book will help the sales.

The only way a writer can really 'say no' to the Big 2 is if they get a movie or TV deal, everything Millar thinks of is green-lit at the moment. Kirkman has one TV show on the air and another in development. Alan Moore is a different case, he's a name-brand. I admire Chris Roberson's stance, but it will be harder to make money for him now.

But money isn't everything.

by **GHERU** » Thu Apr 26, 2012 2:08 pm

Holland Oats wrote:And people are probably not as stupid these days and check their contracts before signing them.

indeed
law shows and past mistakes should have made people much more aware of their options

by **ReturnoftheMack** » Thu Apr 26, 2012 2:09 pm

Punchy wrote:I honestly think the best way is for a creator to do both corporate superheroes and their creator-owned stuff. I enjoy all of Ultimate Spider-Man, Avengers, Brilliant and Powers. I love Criminal etc but I also love Winter Soldier. Casanova is amazing, but Defenders is also great. Animal Man is brilliant, but so is Sweet Tooth. Doing both types of comics is beneficial for pretty much everyone, as it's sadly the case that the majority of creator-owned comics don't make that much money, we're only getting Phonogram 3 later in the year because Gillen and McKelvie can afford to spend the time making it thanks to the money they've made working for Marvel. Plus, putting 'from the writer of Captain America' or whatever on the front of your creator-owned book will help the sales.

The only way a writer can really 'say no' to the Big 2 is if they get a movie or TV deal, everything Millar thinks of is green-lit at the moment. Kirkman has one TV show on the air and another in development. Alan Moore is a different case, he's a name-brand. I admire Chris Roberson's stance, but it will be harder to make money for him now.

But money isn't everything.

Well said.

by **Chesscub** » Thu Apr 26, 2012 2:11 pm

Punchy wrote:I honestly think the best way is for a creator to do both corporate superheroes and their creator-owned stuff. I enjoy all of Ultimate Spider-Man, Avengers, Brilliant and Powers. I love Criminal etc but I also love Winter Soldier. Casanova is amazing, but Defenders is also great. Animal Man is brilliant, but so is Sweet Tooth. Doing both types of comics is beneficial for pretty much everyone, as it's sadly the case that the majority of creator-owned comics don't make that much money, we're only getting Phonogram 3 later in the year because Gillen and McKelvie can afford to spend the time making it thanks to the money they've made working for Marvel. Plus, putting 'from the writer of Captain America' or whatever on the front of your creator-owned book will help the sales.

The only way a writer can really 'say no' to the Big 2 is if they get a movie or TV deal, everything Millar thinks of is green-lit at the moment. Kirkman has one TV show on the air and another in development. Alan Moore is a different case, he's a name-brand. I admire Chris Roberson's stance, but it will be harder to make money for him now.

But money isn't everything.

Well put .

by **S.F. Jude Terror** » Thu Apr 26, 2012 2:40 pm

Holland Oats wrote:
Mark Millar never would've been the "name" he is today without all the work he did for Marvel and DC in the 90's and early 2000's. It enabled him to turn that popularity towards his own stuff. But I don't know how much creative integrity he can really have when everything he writes anymore (even the good stuff) is basically just a movie pitch.

Gotta give it to him though.. I enjoyed Superior and Nemesis, and the current crop of books are good as well.

Robert Kirkman didn't turn his back on the Big 2. He had no choice. He couldn't cut it at Marvel. Have you actually read his Marvel books? They were horrible, and I don't think sold for shit. Considering all the game he talked for YEARS about wanting to write Ultimate Spider-Man after Bendis left, if Bendis ever left that is.. you honestly don't think he would jump at the chance if allowed? It was laughable of him to pull the whole "creator-owned comics are the way to go!" angle only after he fell flat on his face at his Marvel attempt.

Fat Bob is the worst.