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Feminist Frequency: Women vs. Tropes in Video Games (Update)

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Re: Feminist Frequency: Women vs. Tropes in Video Games

Postby GLX » Mon Mar 11, 2013 3:53 pm

Sunless wrote:I find some of the women in Mass Effect strong, but she will probably disagree, because Miranda wears tight pants or the Asari are all blue big breasted women or whatever.

She going to do comics next?


Directly? No. She's mentioned comics in these videos:


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Re: Feminist Frequency: Women vs. Tropes in Video Games

Postby Food Eater lad » Mon Mar 11, 2013 4:22 pm

Eli Katz wrote:The Office on Violence Against Women within the Department of Justice covers male victims of domestic violence and sexual assault.



So why is called the violence against women act? That, by the way, is a legitmate, non snarky question.
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Re: Feminist Frequency: Women vs. Tropes in Video Games

Postby Rockman » Mon Mar 11, 2013 5:34 pm

Ntikrst wrote:
I can see why she incurred the wrath of trolls everywhere, the woman is extremely offensive. Her agenda is to secure a livelihood without having to actually work for a living so she chooses to target video games because the medium is easily confused as a children's only genre which increases her chances of gaining traction with parent groups and earning more money for her professional activism.

If the War is to be waged against people who exploit women, then why not start with the Kardashians? Or professional cheerleaders? Maybe the gay men and old women who run the fashion and cosmetics industry? Or how about Hollywood for making breast implants a pre-requisite for beauty? Then there's things like 50 shades of Grey or Chippendales, I mean shouldn't men be protected from exploitation and vilification too?

My wife doesn't complain when I objectify her in the bedroom, nor do I complain when she asks me to lift my arms over my head so she can see my lats flare while she's riding me. Being worthy of Objectification is powerful validation that makes people feel good about themselves. Just because some puritans aren't able to be comfortable with themselves, I don't see why they think everyone else should be just as uncomfortable as they are, in order to feel normal.

It's fucking repugnant. :smt011


Actually I don't see why she has incurred the wrath of anyone, aside from the fact that this is the internet and people are ridiculous on the internet.

I certainly don't share this woman's world view, but no one is going to make me watch her videos either. I never even heard of her until GLX shared this video. The amount of just crass comments and behavior that she has gotten just because she has a shared an opinion is repugnant. And it's no surprise it's all from the stereotypical male nerd :lol:

Just browsing her videos I come across several "rebuttal" videos which is just some greasy dude wheezing into his camera about his this woman is a "bitch" :roll: Or people complaining that she is against free speech because she doesn't allow comments on a lot of her videos. Honestly I don't blame her there considering the low level of intelligent discourse you get from youtube comments and stuff.

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Re: Feminist Frequency: Women vs. Tropes in Video Games

Postby GLX » Mon Mar 11, 2013 6:30 pm

Rockman wrote:
Actually I don't see why she has incurred the wrath of anyone, aside from the fact that this is the internet and people are ridiculous on the internet.

I certainly don't share this woman's world view, but no one is going to make me watch her videos either. I never even heard of her until GLX shared this video. The amount of just crass comments and behavior that she has gotten just because she has a shared an opinion is repugnant. And it's no surprise it's all from the stereotypical male nerd :lol:

Just browsing her videos I come across several "rebuttal" videos which is just some greasy dude wheezing into his camera about his this woman is a "bitch" :roll: Or people complaining that she is against free speech because she doesn't allow comments on a lot of her videos. Honestly I don't blame her there considering the low level of intelligent discourse you get from youtube comments and stuff.


Yep. There's being a critic and being an asshole. The latter describes a lot of the people who've shitted on Sarkeesian.

That being said, there's room for criticism against her. Here are some videos that make some good points (even though I'm not lockstep in agreement with all of them):


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Re: Feminist Frequency: Women vs. Tropes in Video Games

Postby The Beast » Mon Mar 11, 2013 7:58 pm

Rockman wrote:
Actually I don't see why she has incurred the wrath of anyone, aside from the fact that this is the internet and people are ridiculous on the internet.

I certainly don't share this woman's world view, but no one is going to make me watch her videos either. I never even heard of her until GLX shared this video. The amount of just crass comments and behavior that she has gotten just because she has a shared an opinion is repugnant. And it's no surprise it's all from the stereotypical male nerd :lol:

Just browsing her videos I come across several "rebuttal" videos which is just some greasy dude wheezing into his camera about his this woman is a "bitch" :roll: Or people complaining that she is against free speech because she doesn't allow comments on a lot of her videos. Honestly I don't blame her there considering the low level of intelligent discourse you get from youtube comments and stuff.


She "deserves" (in the cause and effect sense of the word) the Wrath of the Trolls because she's advocating censorship of their age appropriate entertainment, which nobody is forcing her to watch either, btw. She isn't sharing an opinion; she's fulfilling an agenda to make a living out of organizing and leading a Witch-hunt like some modern day Fredric Wertham. Lord knows the sensibilities of intellectuals are much more important than the stereotypical male herd. :smt011

If she doesn't like how the industry is run then why doesn't she man-up and compete in the free market? Let her raise some money and produce some positive role models in video games and comic books for people to buy. Then when it's obvious that her product is superior because it's preferred by all the new customers who showed up to support it, she can influence how the entertainment industry depicts women because her example will be so successful that everyone will want to follow it.

If women really want respect all they have to do is stop nagging from the rear and lead by example more often. :shock:

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Re: Feminist Frequency: Women vs. Tropes in Video Games

Postby LobsterJ » Mon Mar 11, 2013 8:18 pm

Ntikrst wrote:
She "deserves" (in the cause and effect sense of the word) the Wrath of the Trolls because she's advocating censorship of their age appropriate entertainment, which nobody is forcing her to watch either, btw. She isn't sharing an opinion; she's fulfilling an agenda to make a living out of organizing and leading a Witch-hunt like some modern day Fredric Wertham. Lord knows the sensibilities of intellectuals are much more important than the stereotypical male herd. :smt011

If she doesn't like how the industry is run then why doesn't she man-up and compete in the free market? Let her raise some money and produce some positive role models in video games and comic books for people to buy. Then when it's obvious that her product is superior because it's preferred by all the new customers who showed up to support it, she can influence how the entertainment industry depicts women because her example will be so successful that everyone will want to follow it.

If women really want respect all they have to do is stop nagging from the rear and lead by example more often. :shock:


Where exactly does she advocate censorship? A specific time in any of her videos.

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Re: Feminist Frequency: Women vs. Tropes in Video Games

Postby GLX » Mon Mar 11, 2013 10:12 pm

Cliffy B wrote:Let’s talk about Anita Sarkeesian.

The “Tropes Vs. Women” controversy caught my attention when I noticed, right on Anita’s main Kickstarter image for her campaign, that there was Anya, front and center. I was surprised and a bit confused by this. As I mentioned above, she wasn’t an object to “win” in the Gears franchise. She was far from helpless as the franchise matured. Even then the franchise was famous or characters such as fan favorite Bernie, who was an older woman who kicked plenty of enemy butt as well.

Once her first video launched, I found it to be smart, informative, and well put together. She clearly knows what she’s doing and, even if you knew a lot of the information she was sharing it’s worth watching for the nostalgia of how comedic the repetitive nature the business has been with the Damsel in Distress motif. After watching the video I went to my Twitter feed to see what the fuss was about … were there really people out there who were still so very angry at what this woman was doing?



As it turns out, yes, there were. I heard a variety of responses. Before we dive into some of the thinking behind them, let’s look at some of the Kickstarter numbers and break it down a bit.



Anita was asking for 6000$ for her campaign. News hit the internet of the campaign, and the Taliban of videogaming responded in droves. Who was this…this…woman who wanted to analyze women in video games? How dare she! An army of bold (and, naturally, largely anonymous) men…no, wait, boys, because even adult males that acted in this manner are boys – proceeded to give her a digital stoning. We saw a public display that mirrored the worst of what the anonymous internet male culture has to offer. That young guy who assumes that a girl playing an online game is fat, ugly or slutty now had a CAUSE to rally behind!



And then a funny thing happened. Anita shared some of the heinous virtual abuse – bullying, in fact – on her website and people rallied behind her to the tune of over 150K. Folks who responded to my Twitter query were enraged by this fact! How dare she ask for money and then get … well, a whole lot more money! One guy even made a flash game where you can beat her up. How much of a bored, hateful loser must you be to even consider doing something like that?!



I’d like to take this moment and remind everyone out there that my good friends at Doublefine, not so long ago, also killed it on Kickstarter. After asking for 400K on Kickstarter they wound up with a final tally of 3.3m. Now, I read the Kickstarter page about campaigns that succeed and I didn’t find a single line about doing too well at Kickstarter. As far as I can tell, if you put up a campaign where you ask for 500 bucks to artistically photograph your ham sandwich and it becomes a thing online you’re welcome to do whatever you need to with the difference as long as you fulfill your promises to each backer.



So let me get this straight. Doublefine can win Kickstarter but a woman who wants to analyze the treatment of her gender in our business is somehow…exempt from this?



What color is the sky in the world you trolls live in?



I’m assuming you can do a decent web series for a pretty low amount of money. $6,000 sounds like a healthy budget, even maybe a bit much for what the Anonymous Internet Boy Taliban thought was needed for the videos. Here’s the thing, though, boys. It’s not your call on how much the series should cost, or how much she should be allowed to make on Kickstarter. (The Boys were so enraged by this as they believed she “scammed” money out of people. One man’s “scammed” is another’s “shut up and take my money.”)



You know, maybe people were just happy to donate money to a project that should see the light of day because of irrational immature male fear on the internet. It’s called voting with your dollars.




So let’s assume that Anita fulfills the promises to all of her backers and is then left with $144,000.00. I’m gathering this project is a self employed gig, so she most likely has to pay self employment tax. Fulfilling everything to the donors also costs money. When you earn that amount of money you are also in a higher tax bracket and you make more, you pay more. I’m not an accountant, but I’d estimate that when all is said and done and this project takes her a year then she might actually be able to pay herself a (gasp) good salary for her year’s work.



How dare she!



Heaven forbid a woman actually take a magnifying glass to our beloved hobby and actually try to unravel and figure out why things are the way they are in the effort that somehow she might change things? Why aren’t there more female protagonists? Are you protecting Lara Croft in the new Tomb Raider or are you empowering her? And god dammit, where’s my Buffy game?



Shame on all of you.



My wife and I had dinner with the always amazing Warren Spector and his brilliant (and sharp tongued) wife Caroline last night and this very subject came up. Caroline was rather eager to speak up about it. We went back and forth on the subject and, I’m paraphrasing, but the takeaway that she said to me (and I’m sure she’ll do a great talk or article about it) is that we’re not supposed to be this crowd.



We’re the gamers, the dorks. We’re the ones who were on our computers during prom. We’re the ones that were in the back of the lunch room who were playing D&D instead of tossing a football around on the quad. We were supposed to be the open, friendly ones, the ones who welcomed all into our wonderful geeky circle.



We’re not supposed to be a mob that’s storming the gates with our pitchforks and torches.



We’re not the bullies. And that’s what happened to Anita.



Recently at the DICE summit in Las Vegas David Cage called on the industry to “grow up.” In some ways, David, I agree… we can do better in many, many areas. We can make more mature and engaging plot lines and explore unique game mechanics beyond sawing someone in half. The reason we haven’t? It’s because it’s fucking hard and we’re looking at an industry that is ever more risk averse as more and more money is needed to craft product.



However if we’re going to grow up as an industry we’re going to need the consumer to grow up a bit as well. The latent racism, homophobia, and misogyny online are black marks on an otherwise great hobby. Anonymity is the gasoline on the fire of hate that flares up on forums, chat rooms, and Xbox Live on daily basis.



Why are there so many shooters? Because it’s easy to make a trace in code to see if you virtually “tagged” someone. Why were there so many princesses in need of rescue? Because it was easy, and for many years we didn’t have the tools or desire to try something else. Why did Mario have a moustache originally? Because they didn’t have the graphical fidelity to depict much more. The purpose of research is to encourage rational thought in areas where there may have not been much before. If, by watching Anita’s videos I, as a developer, can reconsider how I depict women in any future product of mine then her work may very well be worth it.



And maybe, as a result of this, years later we may see more and more girls who are comfortable playing games, online or off, or going to a conference …or joining the industry in a professional manner.



This is where change sometimes starts, merely by asking “Why?”


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Re: Feminist Frequency: Women vs. Tropes in Video Games

Postby Eli Katz » Tue Mar 12, 2013 7:34 am

Food Eater lad wrote:

So why is called the violence against women act? That, by the way, is a legitmate, non snarky question.

There are probably two reasons:

First, women are more likely to be victims of rape and domestic violence than men. So while the investigatory powers under the Act can be used to help both male and female victims, policymakers likely envisioned it, at least initially, as addressing crimes that disproportionately affect women.

Second, bills are often given titles for political reasons. Democrats pushed this bill originally, and probably wanted to send a clear signal to feminist groups and women voters that they are responding directly to women's needs. Feminist groups, such as NOW, play an important role in Democratic primaries and campaigns, and women tend to vote in higher numbers for the Democratic Party than the Republican Party. So Democratic lawmakers have very strong electoral incentives to appeal to women.

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Re: Feminist Frequency: Women vs. Tropes in Video Games

Postby HNutz » Tue Mar 12, 2013 7:41 am

Eli Katz wrote:There are probably two reasons:

First, women are more likely to be victims of rape and domestic violence than men. So while the investigatory powers under the Act can be used to help both male and female victims, policymakers likely envisioned it, at least initially, as addressing crimes that disproportionately affect women.

Second, bills are often given titles for political reasons. Democrats pushed this bill originally, and probably wanted to send a clear signal to feminist groups and women voters that they are responding directly to women's needs. Feminist groups, such as NOW, play an important role in Democratic primaries and campaigns, and women tend to vote in higher numbers for the Democratic Party than the Republican Party. So Democratic lawmakers have very strong electoral incentives to appeal to women.


And so they can say "So-and-so voted against the 'Violence Against Women Act'... they must be in favor of violence against women. Vote'em out"

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Re: Feminist Frequency: Women vs. Tropes in Video Games

Postby The Beast » Tue Mar 12, 2013 12:37 pm

LobsterJ wrote:
Where exactly does she advocate censorship? A specific time in any of her videos.


Are you for real, or are you just being conveniently obtuse?

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Re: Feminist Frequency: Women vs. Tropes in Video Games

Postby LobsterJ » Tue Mar 12, 2013 1:26 pm

Ntikrst wrote:
Are you for real, or are you just being conveniently obtuse?


Wanting to engage in a dialogue regarding issues that impact you daily does not mean someone is advocating censorship.

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Re: Feminist Frequency: Women vs. Tropes in Video Games

Postby The Beast » Tue Mar 12, 2013 1:31 pm

GLX wrote:
Yep. There's being a critic and being an asshole. The latter describes a lot of the people who've shitted on Sarkeesian.

That being said, there's room for criticism against her. Here are some videos that make some good points (even though I'm not lockstep in agreement with all of them):




Thanks for taking the time to post that GLX. As the analysis points out, She's an intellectual fraud who regurgitates curriculum without any thoughts of her own, isn't even a real feminist and manipulates her opponents into overreacting by giving them no real outlet for discourse until it suits her then she showcases their pent up excessive response. She's nothing more than professional activist who doesn't want to actually work for a living. Heaven forbid she actually come up with a solution herself or produce art herself to counter the trends she doesn't like.

With all due respect to the rest of you guys, I really don't see anyone can't be in lockstep agreement with these two videos, she has been completely exposed for the fraud that she is. Video games don't foster Misogyny but women with Penis Envy always do.

I wonder what kind of vitriol I could stir up if I launched a campaign to criminalize and outlaw high heel shoes, breast implants, Botox, Cosmetics and facial piercings so that by the time my daughter grows up she isn't victimized by unattainable goals the beauty industry sets in order to make women compliant slaves to their trends. Something must be done; these women are incapable of saving themselves and everyone exposed to these products will become a victim to the industry so someone is going to have to intervene on their behalf, whether women like it or not.
Last edited by The Beast on Tue Mar 12, 2013 1:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Feminist Frequency: Women vs. Tropes in Video Games

Postby The Beast » Tue Mar 12, 2013 1:32 pm

LobsterJ wrote:
Wanting to engage in a dialogue regarding issues that impact you daily does not mean someone is advocating censorship.


She doesn't engage in dialogue.

Didn't you watch the critical response videos that GLX posted?




Ask yourself why is she attacking video games and comic books when there are much bigger issues that impact women on a daily basis to a far greater degree? Women's shoes elevate the foot to make buttocks and breasts more prominent and destroy the feet and cause serious health risks over time. Botox/Elective surgery and the celebrities who encourage it so that no girl can ever feel pretty without purchasing upgrades. Models who are relentlessly thin and photoshopped thin to encourage eating disorders. Or the Kardashian effect that implies every girl should embrace her inner porn-star in order to be popular.

I know as a Father who is actually concerned with the state of Feminism and how the world is going to victimize my perfect little angel where the real battles are and it sure as hell isn't in some video game or comic book.

So why are her priorities so fucked up then?

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Re: Feminist Frequency: Women vs. Tropes in Video Games

Postby LobsterJ » Tue Mar 12, 2013 2:31 pm

Ntikrst wrote:
She doesn't engage in dialogue.

Didn't you watch the critical response videos that GLX posted?




Ask yourself why is she attacking video games and comic books when there are much bigger issues that impact women on a daily basis to a far greater degree? Women's shoes elevate the foot to make buttocks and breasts more prominent and destroy the feet and cause serious health risks over time. Botox/Elective surgery and the celebrities who encourage it so that no girl can ever feel pretty without purchasing upgrades. Models who are relentlessly thin and photoshopped thin to encourage eating disorders. Or the Kardashian effect that implies every girl should embrace her inner porn-star in order to be popular.

I know as a Father who is actually concerned with the state of Feminism and how the world is going to victimize my perfect little angel where the real battles are and it sure as hell isn't in some video game or comic book.

So why are her priorities so fucked up then?


So because you as a male feel A is more important than B to women, than her priorities are fucked up to discuss B? Gotcha.

Where exactly did she advocate censorship again? Is this something she actually did or your interpretation based on...something?

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Re: Feminist Frequency: Women vs. Tropes in Video Games

Postby The Beast » Tue Mar 12, 2013 2:42 pm

LobsterJ wrote:
So because you're an objective human being who has easily demonstrated that A is more important than B to women, then her priorities are fucked up to discuss B? Gotcha.


Maybe you will now that I fixed that for you. What kind of fucking moron thinks comic books and video games contribute to the exploitation of women to a greater degree than the Fashion Industry?

Where exactly did she advocate censorship again? Is this something she actually did or your interpretation based on...something?


When she keeps repeating what "she wants" the gaming/comic book industry to do, do you honestly think she's just making benign suggestions that she never wants enforced after she whips her Penis Envying base into a frenzy?
Last edited by The Beast on Tue Mar 12, 2013 2:48 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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