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George R.R. Martin Hates Your Fan-Fic

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Re: George R.R. Martin Hates Your Fan-Fic

Postby Herald » Tue Nov 12, 2013 10:15 pm

ReturnoftheMack wrote:
Grayson is right, but let's say you are correct.

I didn't say fanfic is bad. Watchmen is probably the greatest comic written and it was completely fanfic by your definition.

Doesn't mean it's not lazy.


1. It's not lazy. By your definition, being hired to write an episode of, say, "It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia" is lazy.

2. You ARE saying fanfic is bad, just by saying it's "lazy". Laziness -- as I'm sure you're aware -- is a negative attribute.

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Re: George R.R. Martin Hates Your Fan-Fic

Postby Grayson » Tue Nov 12, 2013 10:21 pm

Herald wrote:"Fan fiction" is, as the phrase itself says, fiction created by fans. Doesn't really matter if you got paid for it or not.

If you are a "fan", and you wrote this "fiction", it's "fan fiction".


However, the broader definition of fan fiction also goes on to say that fan fiction is work by any author that is not the original creator, owner, or somebody authorized by the creator or owner of the intellectual property. One of the most important parts of fan fiction is that it is also non-canonical by nature.

When you watched "The Avengers" did you marvel at the Avengers cosplayers? :smt102
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Re: George R.R. Martin Hates Your Fan-Fic

Postby Frag » Tue Nov 12, 2013 10:26 pm

Herald wrote:
1. It's not lazy. By your definition, being hired to write an episode of, say, "It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia" is lazy.

2. You ARE saying fanfic is bad, just by saying it's "lazy". Laziness -- as I'm sure you're aware -- is a negative attribute.


1) You are misusing the word.

2) It is bad for writers. It is lazy. The best writers create their own work, mostly because creating characters and a world is very difficult. When you skip those, you lose a big component of the writing process. In terms of enjoyment, it can be good while being lazy though.

As I'm sure you're aware, positive things can come from negative attributes.
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Re: George R.R. Martin Hates Your Fan-Fic

Postby Chessack » Tue Nov 12, 2013 10:40 pm

Well... what do you mean by "canonical?" The "Avengers" movie is not canonical within the Marvel comic-book universe.

Also, this idea of laziness is strange to me when talking about writing fiction. Unless the story is plagiarized (which is lazy), taking someone else's character and writing a new story about him/her is arguably much more difficult than totally making up your own character. When you make your own character up, whatever you say goes. If Uberman is my character and I say he would do X, then he does X. No one can gainsay me. But if I write a story about Batman, there is an established background, character disposition, and set of supporting characters. I can't write (good) Batman fan-fic by completely ignoring those. Therefore, I am constrained much more strongly by what the "canon" elements say, than I would be if I just wrote my own story.

Indeed... one of the dreams I harbored in my youth, heck all the way into grad school, was to somehow, in some way, write my own comic-books. Now, what I really wanted to do, was to do my own characters. I had a bunch of them. I had plotted out stories for a team called the "Champions of Good" (you laugh, but I was like 11 years old, so cut me some slack) out to like "issue 75". They weren't detailed plots, just 1-2 sentence deals like, "So-and-so returns and seeks to obtain the rod of powerful evil and the Champs fight him." But still. THAT is what I wanted to write. That comic.

I knew, however, that you couldn't do that. Back in those days, an editor, I think it was Denny O'Neil (but I could be wrong) explained in a letter column that the way to break into comics was NOT to do your own creations. He said no one would take a risk on publishing new, non-established characters from a new writer right off the bat. You had to establish yourself first. You had to write one-shot stories about existing characters like Batman or Supergirl, and send them to the editor of that comic. If he liked your work, he would keep it on file and, one day when the main writer couldn't meet a deadline, maybe he'd use it. Submit your work to many editors, and one day, you might get a break.

I thought about it. Even tried to plot some out. I couldn't do it, and I eventually gave up. Know why? It was too hard to use an established character. Although I liked reading about Batman or Supergirl or the X-Men, I found it too hard to write someone else's characters. I had a better feel for my own.

So, I don't think it's lazy to write fan-fic. If anything, having written (but never published) three full fantasy novels and parts of two more (each of them hundreds of manuscript pages long) but not ever been able to turn in a single one-issue comic script about an existing character, I say the lazier way is to just make up all my own stuff. Because then I can do whatever I want, and i don't have an existing continuity or established character to worry about.

So... if you wanna rag on fan-fic for some other reason, go ahead. But don't call it lazy, because it's not.

Again, I'm not talking about plagiarism (copying whole stories, etc).

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Re: George R.R. Martin Hates Your Fan-Fic

Postby Frag » Tue Nov 12, 2013 10:45 pm

Chessack wrote:Well... what do you mean by "canonical?" The "Avengers" movie is not canonical within the Marvel comic-book universe.

Also, this idea of laziness is strange to me when talking about writing fiction. Unless the story is plagiarized (which is lazy), taking someone else's character and writing a new story about him/her is arguably much more difficult than totally making up your own character. When you make your own character up, whatever you say goes. If Uberman is my character and I say he would do X, then he does X. No one can gainsay me. But if I write a story about Batman, there is an established background, character disposition, and set of supporting characters. I can't write (good) Batman fan-fic by completely ignoring those. Therefore, I am constrained much more strongly by what the "canon" elements say, than I would be if I just wrote my own story.

Indeed... one of the dreams I harbored in my youth, heck all the way into grad school, was to somehow, in some way, write my own comic-books. Now, what I really wanted to do, was to do my own characters. I had a bunch of them. I had plotted out stories for a team called the "Champions of Good" (you laugh, but I was like 11 years old, so cut me some slack) out to like "issue 75". They weren't detailed plots, just 1-2 sentence deals like, "So-and-so returns and seeks to obtain the rod of powerful evil and the Champs fight him." But still. THAT is what I wanted to write. That comic.

I knew, however, that you couldn't do that. Back in those days, an editor, I think it was Denny O'Neil (but I could be wrong) explained in a letter column that the way to break into comics was NOT to do your own creations. He said no one would take a risk on publishing new, non-established characters from a new writer right off the bat. You had to establish yourself first. You had to write one-shot stories about existing characters like Batman or Supergirl, and send them to the editor of that comic. If he liked your work, he would keep it on file and, one day when the main writer couldn't meet a deadline, maybe he'd use it. Submit your work to many editors, and one day, you might get a break.

I thought about it. Even tried to plot some out. I couldn't do it, and I eventually gave up. Know why? It was too hard to use an established character. Although I liked reading about Batman or Supergirl or the X-Men, I found it too hard to write someone else's characters. I had a better feel for my own.

So, I don't think it's lazy to write fan-fic. If anything, having written (but never published) three full fantasy novels and parts of two more (each of them hundreds of manuscript pages long) but not ever been able to turn in a single one-issue comic script about an existing character, I say the lazier way is to just make up all my own stuff. Because then I can do whatever I want, and i don't have an existing continuity or established character to worry about.

So... if you wanna rag on fan-fic for some other reason, go ahead. But don't call it lazy, because it's not.

Again, I'm not talking about plagiarism (copying whole stories, etc).


Firstly, you must realize that this is anecdotal.

Secondly, sure you define the rules in your world, but ask any writer and they will tell you that the first and most difficult part of writing fiction is to create compelling characters.

And in fanfic, you can take Batman and put him in Narnia and create your own rules anyway.
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Re: George R.R. Martin Hates Your Fan-Fic

Postby S.F. Jude Terror » Tue Nov 12, 2013 10:47 pm

In all my fanfic, I imagine that Batman has just been hit over the head with a coconut and has amnesia, and then I can write him any way I want.
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Re: George R.R. Martin Hates Your Fan-Fic

Postby Herald » Tue Nov 12, 2013 11:02 pm

ReturnoftheMack wrote:
1) You are misusing the word.


No, I'm using the word as you defined it earlier, and refined further in this very post I'm addressing. You think that anyone who writes any previously created characters is being "lazy". That's preposterous.

2) It is bad for writers.


So you DO realize that you're saying it's bad! Ironically, that's good! :wink:

It is lazy. The best writers create their own work, mostly because creating characters and a world is very difficult. When you skip those, you lose a big component of the writing process. In terms of enjoyment, it can be good while being lazy though.


So anyone who has ever written, say, a Superman comic besides Jerry Siegel is a slacker of the highest order, in your mind. And, as I said before, anybody hired to write an episode of "It's Always Sunny..." is also being lazy. Good to know... :roll:

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Re: George R.R. Martin Hates Your Fan-Fic

Postby Herald » Tue Nov 12, 2013 11:03 pm

S.F. Jude Terror wrote:In all my fanfic, I imagine that Batman has just been hit over the head with a coconut and has amnesia, and then I can write him any way I want.


Ah, the "JUSTICE!" Robinson School of Writing at work... :D

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Re: George R.R. Martin Hates Your Fan-Fic

Postby Herald » Tue Nov 12, 2013 11:07 pm

Chessack wrote:Well... what do you mean by "canonical?" The "Avengers" movie is not canonical within the Marvel comic-book universe.

Also, this idea of laziness is strange to me when talking about writing fiction. Unless the story is plagiarized (which is lazy), taking someone else's character and writing a new story about him/her is arguably much more difficult than totally making up your own character. When you make your own character up, whatever you say goes. If Uberman is my character and I say he would do X, then he does X. No one can gainsay me. But if I write a story about Batman, there is an established background, character disposition, and set of supporting characters. I can't write (good) Batman fan-fic by completely ignoring those. Therefore, I am constrained much more strongly by what the "canon" elements say, than I would be if I just wrote my own story.

Indeed... one of the dreams I harbored in my youth, heck all the way into grad school, was to somehow, in some way, write my own comic-books. Now, what I really wanted to do, was to do my own characters. I had a bunch of them. I had plotted out stories for a team called the "Champions of Good" (you laugh, but I was like 11 years old, so cut me some slack) out to like "issue 75". They weren't detailed plots, just 1-2 sentence deals like, "So-and-so returns and seeks to obtain the rod of powerful evil and the Champs fight him." But still. THAT is what I wanted to write. That comic.

I knew, however, that you couldn't do that. Back in those days, an editor, I think it was Denny O'Neil (but I could be wrong) explained in a letter column that the way to break into comics was NOT to do your own creations. He said no one would take a risk on publishing new, non-established characters from a new writer right off the bat. You had to establish yourself first. You had to write one-shot stories about existing characters like Batman or Supergirl, and send them to the editor of that comic. If he liked your work, he would keep it on file and, one day when the main writer couldn't meet a deadline, maybe he'd use it. Submit your work to many editors, and one day, you might get a break.

I thought about it. Even tried to plot some out. I couldn't do it, and I eventually gave up. Know why? It was too hard to use an established character. Although I liked reading about Batman or Supergirl or the X-Men, I found it too hard to write someone else's characters. I had a better feel for my own.

So, I don't think it's lazy to write fan-fic. If anything, having written (but never published) three full fantasy novels and parts of two more (each of them hundreds of manuscript pages long) but not ever been able to turn in a single one-issue comic script about an existing character, I say the lazier way is to just make up all my own stuff. Because then I can do whatever I want, and i don't have an existing continuity or established character to worry about.

So... if you wanna rag on fan-fic for some other reason, go ahead. But don't call it lazy, because it's not.

Again, I'm not talking about plagiarism (copying whole stories, etc).


THIS.

It's much more difficult to craft a story that fits neatly into someone else's milieu (especially when there's so much of it to consider from so many previous writers, as with the DCU or Marvel U), than to create a story in a new universe, in which I am the only one with any say-so on what it's like, so nobody can tell me sh**.

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Re: George R.R. Martin Hates Your Fan-Fic

Postby Herald » Tue Nov 12, 2013 11:16 pm

ReturnoftheMack wrote:
Firstly, you must realize that this is anecdotal.c

Secondly, sure you define the rules in your world, but ask any writer and they will tell you that the first and most difficult part of writing fiction is to create compelling characters.

And in fanfic, you can take Batman and put him in Narnia and create your own rules anyway.


If you're creating your own rules, then you aren't really writing Batman or Narnia. Established characters and settings come with established rules, so if you use your own rules instead, you're just writing Batman and Narnia In Name Only. There lies Halle Berry Catwoman and its ilk.

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Re: George R.R. Martin Hates Your Fan-Fic

Postby jeremy » Tue Nov 12, 2013 11:22 pm

This all got pretty serious. Anyways, my personal thoughts on fan fic is that it's just harmless fun. I don't think it should be taken too seriously, a lot of it is not very good, and for the writer it's just practice. I learned a lot making that Skyrim comic I did last year. As for actually licensing stories out, I'm glad he's not going that. He's done so for games and shows, that's plenty. As for what happens when he and his wife are gone with no heirs, who's to say.

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Re: George R.R. Martin Hates Your Fan-Fic

Postby Herald » Tue Nov 12, 2013 11:36 pm

Grayson wrote:
However, the broader definition of fan fiction also goes on to say that fan fiction is work by any author that is not the original creator, owner, or somebody authorized by the creator or owner of the intellectual property. One of the most important parts of fan fiction is that it is also non-canonical by nature.

When you watched "The Avengers" did you marvel at the Avengers cosplayers? :smt102


As Chessack pointed out, what about the Avengers movie, indeed?? It's non-canonical with the comics. So, by your definition, is the Avengers movie fan fiction?? How about DC's Elseworlds, and Marvel's What If's?? Those are non-canon, too.

Oh, and I never saw the Avengers movie. I'm not much of a Marvel fan, so I'm not really hyped to see Marvel movies. Besides, as I always like to steal from Hudson from Disney's Gargoyles: "It'll be on cable soon enough." :wink:

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Re: George R.R. Martin Hates Your Fan-Fic

Postby Frag » Tue Nov 12, 2013 11:40 pm

Herald wrote:No, I'm using the word as you defined it earlier, and refined further in this very post I'm addressing. You think that anyone who writes any previously created characters is being "lazy". That's preposterous.


No, I was right the first time. You don't know how to use the word in this context.

So you DO realize that you're saying it's bad! Ironically, that's good! :wink:


You aren't understanding anything I'm saying. I can't tell if that's on purpose or not.

So anyone who has ever written, say, a Superman comic besides Jerry Siegel is a slacker of the highest order, in your mind. And, as I said before, anybody hired to write an episode of "It's Always Sunny..." is also being lazy. Good to know... :roll:


Now they are slackers of the "highest order"? :lol: Boy you are dramatic.

What I'm saying is that the most famous creators create.

There's a reason most people don't know the random writers of It's Always Sunny, but they know the creators. Same with comics. Robert Kirkman is more of a household name than a Mark Waid.

Now getting paid for a job is not a bad thing and everybody plays a role, but there is a reason that people who create things get ahead.
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Re: George R.R. Martin Hates Your Fan-Fic

Postby Frag » Tue Nov 12, 2013 11:43 pm

Herald wrote:
If you're creating your own rules, then you aren't really writing Batman or Narnia. Established characters and settings come with established rules, so if you use your own rules instead, you're just writing Batman and Narnia In Name Only. There lies Halle Berry Catwoman and its ilk.


Now you sound like Spektre. If I set Batman in Narnia, the character is still Batman. Narnia is still Narnia. If I make it that Bruce Wayne created a pocket dimension in the Batcave to enter Narnia, I am still using someone else's work.

And let's be clear about something. You are using fanfic incorrectly. I am just humoring you here.
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Re: George R.R. Martin Hates Your Fan-Fic

Postby Herald » Tue Nov 12, 2013 11:59 pm

ReturnoftheMack wrote:
No, I was right the first time. You don't know how to use the word in this context.


I know just fine, thanks. You're calling people "lazy" who are anything but.

You aren't understanding anything I'm saying. I can't tell if that's on purpose or not.


I understand just fine, thanks. You're calling people "lazy" who are anything but.

As Chessack said, if you don't like fanfic, that's fine. But to consider people who use characters they didn't create to be "lazy" is absurd.

Now they are slackers of the "highest order"? :lol: Boy you are dramatic.


It's dramatic to call people "lazy" just because they work on characters they didn't create. "As you sow, so shall you reap."

What I'm saying is that the most famous creators create.

There's a reason most people don't know the random writers of It's Always Sunny, but they know the creators. Same with comics. Robert Kirkman is more of a household name than a Mark Waid.


Whereas Denny O'Neil became quite well-known for writing definitive runs of Batman and Green Lantern/Green Arrow, and he created NONE of those characters. On the other side of the coin, Denny being the guy that created characters like Azrael and Samaritan -- much as I personally like those guys -- hasn't exactly made him The Most Interesting Man in the World.

Now getting paid for a job is not a bad thing and everybody plays a role, but there is a reason that people who create things get ahead.


Plenty of people who have created things have flopped. That holds especially true in the industry we usually discuss here: the comics industry, where tons of people will readily buy the decades-old Batman and Justice League no matter how crappy the creators are, while utterly ignoring new creations.

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