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achilles
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Re: Gun Ads

Postby achilles » Mon Dec 17, 2012 11:21 am

e_galston wrote:
as far as getting a 72 hour hold, its not really all that hard, i went into the hospital 2 years ago with suicidal thoughts, didn't have a plan or anything, wasn't gonna harm anyone but possibly myself, and i was put on a 72 hour hold...


You committed yourself? Because a 5150 generally refers to involuntary commitment by a third party---either a police officer or a licensed mental health practitioner. After which yet another interview is required at the hospital. You've got to "fail" both to get committed via 5150. A third party BTW, such as the mother in this case, or a friend, can't initiate a 5150.

In practice, this is usually hard to get. You really have to be demonstrating to the peace officer or mental health pro that you're a danger to yourself or others, or are gravely disabled. What the law in other states is aside from Cali, I don't know.
Achilles is the kind of evil that hollows out a volcano for a lair, and sends killer robots after his enemies.---Lord Simian

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achilles
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Re: Gun Ads

Postby achilles » Mon Dec 17, 2012 11:23 am

Victorian Squid wrote:Soon disposable, untraceable guns will be downloaded and constructed using a home 3D printer, even in heavily regulated countries.


With the exception of the barrel, firing pin, and a couple other parts, that's already possible. And those parts can be ordered online of made by a competent metal worker.
Achilles is the kind of evil that hollows out a volcano for a lair, and sends killer robots after his enemies.---Lord Simian

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Re: Gun Ads

Postby Victorian Squid » Mon Dec 17, 2012 11:28 am

achilles wrote:
With the exception of the barrel, firing pin, and a couple other parts, that's already possible. And those parts can be ordered online of made by a competent metal worker.


There is a competition going on, as I understand it they're even closer than that--although currently on a more complicated industrial 3D printer, the race to complete the 'home-made' zip-gun is getting pretty near the finish line.

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Re: Gun Ads

Postby 3MJ » Mon Dec 17, 2012 11:53 am

The thing is Achilles, you come out with this stuff about mental health now, but the last time there was a massacre in the US you turned the thread on it here into a thread about what guns you like to use with another user (Snug)

That is the type of person I see you as. Someone who likes guns and has learned all these facts about mental health not because he really believes it, but because you want to keep firing your toys.

You can go on about "In Japan 20 people were injured through knives" but at the end of the day a gun is a LOT more deadly than a knife. This guy shot over 100 rounds of ammunition at kids. He wiped out an entire class room.

Would you rather a guy come at you with a knife or shoot you?

There is NO need for any semi auto gun. There is no need to own more than one gun.

I am sickened by the "Pro gun" people in the US. I'm not talking about the people who own guns and are pro gun laws but are sensible about it. I'm talking about the people whose lives are ruled by the ideas there precious gun laws are taken away at any second. That would hear this news and think to themselves "Oh shit this is going to look bad for gun owners" rather than think about the tragedy.

These children are dead because of guns.

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Re: Gun Ads

Postby achilles » Mon Dec 17, 2012 12:13 pm

Jubilee wrote:The thing is Achilles, you come out with this stuff about mental health now, but the last time there was a massacre in the US you turned the thread on it here into a thread about what guns you like to use with another user (Snug)

That is the type of person I see you as. Someone who likes guns and has learned all these facts about mental health not because he really believes it, but because you want to keep firing your toys.

You can go on about "In Japan 20 people were injured through knives" but at the end of the day a gun is a LOT more deadly than a knife. This guy shot over 100 rounds of ammunition at kids. He wiped out an entire class room.

Would you rather a guy come at you with a knife or shoot you?

There is NO need for any semi auto gun. There is no need to own more than one gun.

I am sickened by the "Pro gun" people in the US. I'm not talking about the people who own guns and are pro gun laws but are sensible about it. I'm talking about the people whose lives are ruled by the ideas there precious gun laws are taken away at any second. That would hear this news and think to themselves "Oh shit this is going to look bad for gun owners" rather than think about the tragedy.

These children are dead because of guns.



I don't really care what you see me as, I don't value your opinion. As it happens though, I happen to know the mental health issues and laws and have for years as a result of family working in the field. Your false assumptions about me notwithstanding. As for your question, it depends on the range. Neither is good, and both are likely to result in death or serious injury. That said, there's a slim chance of survival if you keep your wits about you and know what you're doing in either case, but with a knife at close range, you will get hurt, probably very badly even if you survive, no matter how good you are.

In terms of range, at distances under 21 feet, on average, a person with a knife can close the gap and kill even a person who is armed before that person can react. If you doubt the deadliness of knives, merely look to CHINA, (which is not Japan BTW), where knife massacres of children are frequent far beyond the single case I mentioned.

You seem to understand nothing about either guns or the mental health picture in the US. And really don't even have a say thankfully.

If the AMERICAN people want to decide to repeal the Second Amendment, fine, let them do so. But hopefully they can do so with the full understanding that it won't do a damn thing about this. Madmen bent on mass murder will still find guns in defiance of the law, or go to other means.

As for "Sensible", at least be honest. You wouldn't know "sensible" in terms of gun laws it they hit you in the face. You want a gun BAN, total and complete. Much like the people in the US like Bloomberg who are calling for such. Following the Democratic playbook of "never let a good crisis go to waste". If you came out and admitted that, I would have more respect for you, even though you'd still be horribly wrong.

As I pointed out, none of the MANY gun laws this guy violated stopped him. Or even gave him a moment's pause. Or any of the others who've done these deeds. Yet you, and the Dems, claim that somehow MORE gun laws would? Magically if you pass just one more law, a criminal will obey it? Do you not understand that by definition a criminal doesn't obey the law? Really, what planet are you living on? I want to go to the place where wishes and fairy dust make reality.
Last edited by achilles on Mon Dec 17, 2012 12:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Achilles is the kind of evil that hollows out a volcano for a lair, and sends killer robots after his enemies.---Lord Simian

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Re: Gun Ads

Postby 3MJ » Mon Dec 17, 2012 12:18 pm

Wait this guy got hold of a gun in his house that was legally owned, how can you say he'd still get it with certainty if the law wasn't there?

Knife attacks are horrible. They are also 100% less deadly than people who own guns. Could this 20 year old kid killed as many children with knives as he did with 100 rounds? Not a fucking chance!

TWENTY children are dead.

"China's state-run news agency Xinhua said in a report that a 35-year-old-man suddenly went on a stabbing rampage on Friday, inflicting cuts and bruises on 23 residents--22 of which are students aged 8 to 12 years old on their way to school."

23 children suffering cuts and bruises in China in a similar attack.

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Re: Gun Ads

Postby achilles » Mon Dec 17, 2012 12:37 pm

Jubilee wrote:Wait this guy got hold of a gun in his house that was legally owned, how can you say he'd still get it with certainty if the law wasn't there?

Knife attacks are horrible. They are also 100% less deadly than people who own guns. Could this 20 year old kid killed as many children with knives as he did with 100 rounds? Not a fucking chance!

TWENTY children are dead.

"China's state-run news agency Xinhua said in a report that a 35-year-old-man suddenly went on a stabbing rampage on Friday, inflicting cuts and bruises on 23 residents--22 of which are students aged 8 to 12 years old on their way to school."

23 children suffering cuts and bruises in China in a similar attack.


Less deadly? Tell that to the ten dead elementary school kids in one attack by a middle aged doctor in China. Or the fourteen in a couple of months in a series of attacks. And far be it from me to impugn the Chinese official new agencies, and suggest that they might...underplay things a bit, but some of those kids with cuts and bruises were listed in very critical condition a day or so ago.

And do you REALLY want to go into comparative body counts? If so, I will again point out that the deadliest school killing by far in US history used NO guns.

As for your first sentence, that doesn't even make sense. To recap, all I pointed out was that the guy broke at least TEN gun laws---NONE of which stopped him. And in fact pretty nearly every mass murderer broke such laws, and NONE of them were stopped by those laws either. Yet you guys keep on insisting that one more gun law will. In defiance of the facts and logic.

But none of you wants to address the real issue, which is mental health, or rather the lack thereof, thanks in large part to the same folks here in the US who constantly cry for new gun laws.
Achilles is the kind of evil that hollows out a volcano for a lair, and sends killer robots after his enemies.---Lord Simian

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Re: Gun Ads

Postby Nobama » Mon Dec 17, 2012 12:40 pm

Ignoring what damage a given tool is capable of....

Tighter & more restrictive gun laws are fine. Outright banning guns is simply an imbecilic notion and not in the best interest of the people of the United States. Banning guns would only result in law abiding people being absolutely defenseless against criminals who have guns: drug dealers, gang bangers, home intruders, mass murderers, etc. Not to mention, if guns were outright banned the law abiding public would be, again, defenseless against a worst case scenario "tyrannical government". Criminals aren't ever going to give up their guns. The government isn't ever going to give up their guns.

The only reason some psycho like this picks the place he did was because he hedged his bet correctly that no one would be armed. Anyone ever hear of random shootings/massacres taking place at a gun range, a police station or a military base on a regular basis? No, you haven't because it's either incredibly rare or doesn't happen at all.

"They say the best weapon is one you never have to fire. I respectfully disagree. I prefer the weapon you only have to fire once." - Tony Stark

As much as it sucks, that's true.
Last edited by Nobama on Mon Dec 17, 2012 12:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Gun Ads

Postby 3MJ » Mon Dec 17, 2012 12:43 pm

Image

They're the facts Achilles.

Mental Health is certainly an issue. But so is gun control. I'd love to see better understanding of Mental Health, but it's decades away. The fact is though that guns are drearily available in your country, and people keep dying because of it.

"Last year, economist Richard Florida dove deep into the correlations between gun deaths and other kinds of social indicators. Some of what he found was, perhaps, unexpected: Higher populations, more stress, more immigrants, and more mental illness were not correlated with more deaths from gun violence. But one thing he found was, perhaps, perfectly predictable: States with tighter gun control laws appear to have fewer gun-related deaths. The disclaimer here is that correlation is not causation. But correlations can be suggestive:"

"1. Where there are more guns there is more homicide (literature review).

Our review of the academic literature found that a broad array of evidence indicates that gun availability is a risk factor for homicide, both in the United States and across high-income countries. Case-control studies, ecological time-series and cross-sectional studies indicate that in homes, cities, states and regions in the US, where there are more guns, both men and women are at higher risk for homicide, particularly firearm homicide.

Hepburn, Lisa; Hemenway, David. Firearm availability and homicide: A review of the literature. Aggression and Violent Behavior: A Review Journal. 2004; 9:417-40. "

"People killed by handguns last year:
Japan - 48
Britain - 8
Switzerland - 34
Canada - 52
Israel - 58
Sweden - 21
West Germany - 42
US - 10,728 "

THESE are the facts that matter Achilles. It's pathetic that people are still not seeing the problems that gun poses.

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Re: Gun Ads

Postby 3MJ » Mon Dec 17, 2012 12:49 pm

lionel_luthor wrote:Ignoring what damage a given tool is capable of....

Tighter & more restrictive gun laws are fine. Outright banning guns is simply an imbecilic notion and not in the best interest of the people of the United States. Banning guns would only result in law abiding people being absolutely defenseless against criminals who have guns: drug dealers, gang bangers, home intruders, mass murderers, etc. Not to mention, if guns were outright banned the law abiding public would be, again, defenseless against a worst case scenario "tyrannical government". Criminals aren't ever going to give up their guns. The government isn't ever going to give up their guns.

The only reason some psycho like this picks the place he did was because he hedged his bet correctly that no one would be armed. Anyone ever hear of random shootings/massacres taking place at a gun range, a police station or a military base on a regular basis? No, you haven't because it's either incredibly rare or doesn't happen at all.

"They say the best weapon is one you never have to fire. I respectfully disagree. I prefer the weapon you only have to fire once." - Tony Stark


The "tyrannical government" argument is complete bullshit. If the government were to go tyrannical no amount of guns could save you. You're not fighting someone one on one, you're fighting a country with massive resources who could wipe you out in a second. That's the WORST argument for owning a gun.

As for your first point, that IMO is the best reason not to ban guns. Because to be honest the guns are already out there, and easily available. However banning guns IMO would

a) Reduce the number of guns immediately. As I just showed one post ago a vast majority of multiple shootings in the last decade or so are done with legally obtained weapons. If they weren't allowed to be bought in the last decade, how many of those attacks would have happened?

b) Is it best just to let the problem continue than? Even though guns constantly kill people we're supposed to just say "oh well, a lot of people have them, it's too late" Surely the best thing would be to reduce the numbers NOW so future generations are safe.

Sure, the nightmare is that for a while criminals would have weapons. However if police seized and destroyed every gun they found, and there was a Government law enforcing the buying back of guns from all legal gun owners, within a decade or so you'd be looking at millions less guns surely?

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Re: Gun Ads

Postby Nobama » Mon Dec 17, 2012 12:50 pm

Jubilee wrote:Image

Why not do the research on non-mass shootings each year & the guns used being legally versus illegally acquired?
Last edited by Nobama on Mon Dec 17, 2012 12:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Gun Ads

Postby 3MJ » Mon Dec 17, 2012 12:52 pm

lionel_luthor wrote:Why not do the research on non-mass shootings each year & the guns used being legally versus illegally required?


I'd have no idea where to find that knowledge. think it'd be almost impossible to obtain as well wouldn't it?

Why not discuss that graph there though?

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Re: Gun Ads

Postby Nobama » Mon Dec 17, 2012 12:55 pm

Jubilee wrote:
I'd have no idea where to find that knowledge. think it'd be almost impossible to obtain as well wouldn't it?

Why not discuss that graph there though?


That info is a bit misleading in nature, given mass shootings still are vastly less common compared to all other gun related crime.

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Re: Gun Ads

Postby 3MJ » Mon Dec 17, 2012 12:57 pm

Of course they are.

But the information isn't misleading. It's clearly presented. The facts are clearly marked, we are under no illusion as to what it means.

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Re: Gun Ads

Postby e_galston » Mon Dec 17, 2012 1:15 pm

achilles wrote:
You committed yourself? Because a 5150 generally refers to involuntary commitment by a third party---either a police officer or a licensed mental health practitioner. After which yet another interview is required at the hospital. You've got to "fail" both to get committed via 5150. A third party BTW, such as the mother in this case, or a friend, can't initiate a 5150.

In practice, this is usually hard to get. You really have to be demonstrating to the peace officer or mental health pro that you're a danger to yourself or others, or are gravely disabled. What the law in other states is aside from Cali, I don't know.


i didn't commit myself, i was brought in by my friends dad. i really didn't have much of a choice, and even though everyone said i was fine the NEXT day in the mental health wing, i still wasn't allowed to leave.
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