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muddyglass

dr. strangelove

Postby muddyglass » Sun Jan 20, 2013 12:47 am

achilles wrote:
:lol: :lol: :lol:


the gun store had this on sale:

3MJ

Postby 3MJ » Sun Jan 20, 2013 5:36 am

Security Officer Hired by School in Response to Sandy Hook Shooting Forgets to Take Handgun With Him When Exiting Student Restroom
Neetzan Zimmerman

Just days after calling its newly hired armed security guard "a tremendous asset to the safety of our students," a Michigan school released a statement saying the retired firearms instructor had caused a "breach in security protocol" by leaving his handgun unattended in the school's bathroom.

Clark Arnold, formerly of the Lapeer County Sheriff's Office, was hired as a security officer by the Chatfield School in Lapeer following a review of security procedures in the wake of last month's shooting at Sandy Hook Elementary.

"It's probably slim to next to none that someone's going to be needed in the school, but it's that slim you have to worry about," Arnold told TV5 earlier this week.

The interview was posted one day after Arnold had accidentally left an unloaded gun in the students' bathroom "for a few moments," according to a Chatfield School official.

The school, which serves grades K through 8, insists that no students were in danger, and vowed to "continue to work on improving school security."

No charges are pending against Arnold, and Chatfield School Director Matt Young would not say what punishment, if any, the security officer might receive.

"It's almost like no harm no foul," said Lapeer County Prosecutor Byron Konschuh.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

It's almost comical now
User avatar

syxxpakk

Wrasslin' Fan

Postby syxxpakk » Sun Jan 20, 2013 9:32 am

Holy shit.
User avatar

achilles

Rain Partier

Postby achilles » Sun Jan 20, 2013 3:06 pm

Jubilee wrote:
Incredibly stupid argument. All you're proving there is how much harder it is to kill someone without guns, around 10,000 deaths a year through firearm usage.


I get the feeling that I'm in a battle of wits with someone who has unilaterally disarmed. :lol:

But then that's in keeping...
User avatar

achilles

Rain Partier

Postby achilles » Sun Jan 20, 2013 3:08 pm

Jubilee wrote:Security Officer Hired by School in Response to Sandy Hook Shooting Forgets to Take Handgun With Him When Exiting Student Restroom
Neetzan Zimmerman

Just days after calling its newly hired armed security guard "a tremendous asset to the safety of our students," a Michigan school released a statement saying the retired firearms instructor had caused a "breach in security protocol" by leaving his handgun unattended in the school's bathroom.

Clark Arnold, formerly of the Lapeer County Sheriff's Office, was hired as a security officer by the Chatfield School in Lapeer following a review of security procedures in the wake of last month's shooting at Sandy Hook Elementary.

"It's probably slim to next to none that someone's going to be needed in the school, but it's that slim you have to worry about," Arnold told TV5 earlier this week.

The interview was posted one day after Arnold had accidentally left an unloaded gun in the students' bathroom "for a few moments," according to a Chatfield School official.

The school, which serves grades K through 8, insists that no students were in danger, and vowed to "continue to work on improving school security."

No charges are pending against Arnold, and Chatfield School Director Matt Young would not say what punishment, if any, the security officer might receive.

"It's almost like no harm no foul," said Lapeer County Prosecutor Byron Konschuh.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

It's almost comical now


I'd point out that Israel has used armed school guards for years now with great results...

3MJ

Postby 3MJ » Sun Jan 20, 2013 3:19 pm

The United States stands truly alone in the developed world for its lax gun laws, which have contributed to Americans owning guns at a far higher rate than anyone else. The National Rifle Association, in its pushback against calls for gun restrictions after the Sandy Hook Elementary mass shooting, has portrayed things somewhat differently. NRA chief Wayne LaPierre has drawn comparisons to Israel, saying that the U.S. should follow Israel’s example of loose gun laws and of responding to mass shooting by posting armed guards at schools.
LaPierre echoes a number of commentators who oppose gun restrictions and cite Israel as an ideal example. The argument goes like this: Israel has lots of guns and lower rates of gun violence, so clearly the problem with America is not our guns but something else.
The only problem is that Israel actually has quite strong gun restrictions and very low gun ownership rates, some of the lowest in the developed world. This confusion has gotten so bad that even Israeli government officials are now chiming in to knock back the claims, though the NRA is seen as a close ally of the U.S. Republican party, which positions itself as strongly backing Israel.

LaPierre appeared to take his Israel-model advocacy a step too far when he declared on Meet the Press this weekend, “Israel had a whole lot of school shootings, until they did one thing. They said we’re going to stop it and they put armed security in every school and they have not had a problem since then.”
A spokesperson for the Israeli Foreign Ministry told the New York Daily News that this was simply wrong. “We didn’t have a series of school shootings, and they had nothing to do with the issue at hand in the United States. We had to deal with terrorism,” he said. “What removed the danger was not the armed guards but an overall anti-terror policy and anti-terror operations which brought street terrorism down to nearly zero over a number of years.” The spokesperson added, “It would be better not to drag Israel into what is an internal American discussion.”
Israeli guns laws, it turns out, are much stricter than America’s gun laws. This may help explain why Israeli gun ownership is just one thirteenth of what it is in the U.S. To bring that number into focus, it would likely be even lower if not for mandatory military service, which means Israelis are more likely to be familiar with guns. Israel’s unique security challenges and its periodic bouts with terrorism would also seem to bolster an NRA-style case for allowing more privately owned guns so that more citizens can defend themselves. And yet, there are far fewer guns in private citizens’ hands, and far less gun crime.
So why does Israel look more like gun-controlling Britain than gun-loving American? Why are Israel and the U.S. near opposite extremes among Western nations when it comes to gun laws? As American scholar Janet Rosenbaum put it in an article for ForeignPolicy.com, “Israel has well-known security concerns, but it limits security to the professionals.” Whereas Americans laws privilege free access to guns and then restrict them from there, Israeli laws, Rosenbaum writes, “are designed to keep amateurs from carrying guns in the street — even amateurs who have served 3 years in the army.
Israel limits gun ownership to security workers, people who transport valuables or explosives, residents of the West Bank, and hunters. People who don’t fall into one of those categories cannot obtain a firearm permit. Moreover, Israel rejects 40 percent of firearm permit applicants, the highest rejection rate in the Western world. Both Switzerland and Israel require yearly (or more frequent) permit renewals to insure that the reasons are still applicable.

---------

:lol: :lol: :lol:
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Windom URL

Rain Partier

Postby Windom URL » Sun Jan 20, 2013 5:45 pm

5 injured after firearms go off at Ohio, N.C., Indiana gun shows

(CNN) -- At least five people -- three in North Carolina, one in Indiana and one in Ohio -- were injured after weapons went off at gun shows Saturday, officials said, at a time when there's been renewed discussion about private gun sales at such shows.
The most casualties came at the Dixie Gun and Knife Show in Raleigh, North Carolina, where attendees bolted -- with at least one woman wiping out in the frenetic scene -- when gunfire rang out around 1 p.m., as seen on video captured by CNN affiliate WRAL.
Police later explained that a a 36-year-old man from Wilmington, North Carolina, was unfastening the case of his 12-gauge shotgun on a table near the show entrance when it accidentally discharged. The man planned to sell the shotgun at the show.
The bird shot ended up injuring three people. One was a sheriff's deputy, who suffered a slight injury to his hand and was treated and released at a local hospital before returning immediately to work, said Joel Keith, chief of police of the North Carolina State Fair.
A 54-year-old woman from Benson, North Carolina, was being treated for a wound to her right torso at a local hospital, and a 50-year-old man from Durham, North Carolina, was treated for an injured left hand, Keith told reporters.
"I want to emphasize that this is an accident," Keith said.
That said, Wake County sheriff's investigators and the local prosecutor will determine whether to file charges against the gun's owner, authorities said.
Read more: Surprise! Mom packed you a nice gun
Sheriff Donnie Harrison said he was unsure whether it was legal to bring a loaded gun on state fairgrounds. However, when the state fair is held in October, it is illegal to bring a loaded gun to the fairground because of the large crowds, authorities said.
"This is state property. That's something we're looking into," Harrison told reporters. "It's early right now."
The shooting prompted police to ban any private gun sales -- in which visitors bring their firearms to sell at the gun show -- for the remainder of the two-day show, which concludes Sunday, Keith said. He added there wouldn't be any private gun sales on fairgrounds for the indefinite future.
The gun show was closed after the shooting and will reopen Sunday. At that point, show vendors can continue to sell firearms, which are already secured inside the show, Keith said.
"If we thought if it was a problem or a hazard, we wouldn't have this show," Keith said about private gun sales at the show. "I'm sure there isn't anybody who hates this more than the guy who owned this weapon."
Man shoots business partner with semi-automatic handgun
A person is in stable condition at a northern Ohio hospital after being shot by his business partner at a gun show run by Conrad and Dowdell Productions, said Medina police Chief Patrick Berarducci.
The original owner of the Taurus semi-automatic 9 mm handgun used in the shooting brought the firearm into the show fully loaded. This is despite the policy of searches to make sure all guns are not loaded and rendered safe before others can handle them.
The man who bought the gun told police that he took it out, then accidentally fired it, said Berarducci. A single bullet ended up going into the arm and thigh of this man's business partner.
Authorities don't know who brought the loaded firearm into the gun show and sold it, added the police chief. They'll file a request with the federal ATF to track this person down.
The victim, meanwhile, is in good spirits with non-life-threatening injuries, according to Berarducci.
And in Indianapolis, a man walking out of the Indy 1500 Gun and Knife Show shot himself in the hand as he was loading his .45-caliber semi-automatic firearm, Indiana State Police said in a statement.
The 54-year-old Indianapolis man was sent to Wishard Hospital for treatment after being "slightly" injured.
"The investigation determined the shooting to be accidental, and no charges will be filed," police said.
Read more: Newspaper removes controversial online database of gun permit holders
Shootings occur as gun debate rages
Reforming private gun sales -- at shows or anywhere else -- is among the changes that President Barack Obama is now seeking by requiring background checks.
The president has called for action in the wake of last month's shooting at a school in Newtown, Connecticut, which left 27 people -- 20 of them children age 7 or younger -- dead. Gun control activists have likewise pushed for changes, while gun rights advocates have said restrictions on gun sales are unnecessary and in defiance of their Second Amendment rights.
Currently, federal law requires background checks on gun sales by federally licensed firearms dealers, who are often among the vendors at gun shows.
Saturday's incidents occurred on 'Gun Appreciation Day," an event led by a gun rights group that urged Americans to "go to your local gun store, gun range or gun show with your Constitution, American flags and your 'Hands off my Guns' sign to send a loud and clear message."
Sen. Charles Schumer, a New York Democrat, last Sunday issued a statement predicting this event would drive up sales of things like "assault-style rifles," which have already "skyrocketed" in the wake of the Newtown mass shooting.
Jabari Richards, a gun enthusiast, told WRAL at the Raleigh, North Carolina, show that he thought some reforms were wise.
"I think there should be background checks for everybody," Richards said, "because then you know they ... are capable of having a gun."
But another man at the Raleigh show said it was useless for Washington to step in.
"The gun laws that they have on the books aren't enforced, don't do any good," Al Galbraith said.
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Windom URL

Rain Partier

Postby Windom URL » Sun Jan 20, 2013 5:54 pm

Now I'm sure someone will make another pithy but misinformed comment about Israel or something.

So I will just ask instead: Are you so-called responsible gun owners out there making the least little effort to not look like complete fucking retards? Because you're starting to look like a bunch of morons from here.

3MJ

Postby 3MJ » Sun Jan 20, 2013 6:05 pm

Two adults and three children are dead after being shot by a teenager in an Albuquerque home this morning.

The teen, whose exact age has not been released, has been arrested and booked on two counts of murder and three counts of child abuse resulting in death. Right now it's unclear what the boy's connection is to his five victims — a man, a woman, two girls and a boy. Police are also still working to figure out his motive.

Several guns were also found in the home, including an AR-15 semi-automatic rifle like the ones President Obama called on Congress to re-ban this week. Police are looking to figure out who owned the guns.
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achilles

Rain Partier

Postby achilles » Sun Jan 20, 2013 7:25 pm

Victorian Squid wrote:Now I'm sure someone will make another pithy but misinformed comment about Israel or something.

So I will just ask instead: Are you so-called responsible gun owners out there making the least little effort to not look like complete fucking retards? Because you're starting to look like a bunch of morons from here.


Misinformation is the stock and trade of the anti-gun nuts. For example, calling the AR-15 and "assault weapon", or even and "assault rifle". The first is misleading; no military on earth would use such a gun as a weapon. The second is flat out wrong.

There is such a thing as an "assault rifle", and that aint it. Assault rifle is a term that originated in WWII with the Sturmgewehr 44, and refers to a select fire rifle. That is a rifle that can shoot more than one round per trigger pull. That has been ILLEGAL in the US since the 1930s.

An AR-15 is functionally no different from any other semi-automatic weapon. It is targeted by anti-gun nuts because it LOOKS mean, and thus is an easy target.

As for Israel, it is hardly misinformed to point out that they have used armed guards in schools to great effect for years. That is fact. These people are well trained for that task.
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GLX

Outhouse Editor

Postby GLX » Sun Jan 20, 2013 11:17 pm

.....



User avatar

MoneyMelon

Chief Yankee Wanker

Postby MoneyMelon » Mon Jan 21, 2013 12:08 am

achilles wrote:
As for Israel, it is hardly misinformed to point out that they have used armed guards in schools to great effect for years. That is fact. These people are well trained for that task.


Let me preface by saying I'm not anti-gun. I don't own a gun but I have no problems with people having one for sports, hunting or to protect their home.

But the Israel thing I keep hearing....

What do you mean by great effect? I don't recall any rash of school shootings in Israel, let alone stories of armed guards stopping an attack. Israelis are also better trained with weapons because they're required by law to complete military service time. And their gun laws are more strict than the United States. Their gun culture is much, much different than the United States, and that's a country that's in a perpetual state of war. I think it's a poor example people keep throwing around.

Armed guards in every school in America is an unsettling proposition for me. Not to mention really expensive.

I think more than likely we just get idiots like the people in the TSA. Arming those people and then putting them around kids.....I dunno. Feels like that's asking for trouble. Not to mention its weird hearing conservatives asking for an expansion of government like that. I mean, that's a hell of a lot of security people to hire if its even only one guard per school in America.

We already saw an incident where the armed guard at a school in Michigan, put in place in response to the shooting in Newton, left his gun laying around in one of the school's bathrooms. Yikes. And this was a retired firearms instructor! If anybody, this is a guy youd think would be more responsible. More guns around kids doesn't seem like the answer to me.

I think some of Obama's points about gun control made sense. I think addressing the mental health issue is really important and I think every school and police department in the country should have an emergency plan in place to respond to an emergency if, god forbid, something like Sandy Hook ever happens again.

When it comes to the hardware....honestly I don't know enough about guns to even comment on it. I couldn't tell you the difference between a semi-auto or an assault rifle or whatever. My gun knowledge comes down to going to a few gun shops and a shooting range a few times and some target shooting in the woods in Pennsylvania when I was 15. Couldn't even tell you what kind of gun I used. I've managed to stay alive using my charm and good looks.
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achilles

Rain Partier

Postby achilles » Mon Jan 21, 2013 9:21 am

To deal with the great effect part first---there were some terror attacks on schools that led to the policy of putting armed guards in schools. They probably were in the news at the time, but likely weren't played up all that much in American media since terror attacks in Israel aren't exactly unusual. And it was years ago. The great effect part comes in because there weren't any successful attacks on schools since.

As for why they're so good, it's true that they are ex military, but they also undergo extensive additional training in handling handguns and in protecting schools. Weeks worth of training.

We also have a pool of military vets who could undergo similar training. Israel also has very intense screening to determine who they even let into the training program, which weeds out the idiots and careless types, or those with mental problems.

As for Obama, he has a lot of nerve even suggesting new laws, since he didn't bother enforcing the laws already on the books. His prosecutions of gun crimes were considerably less than prosecutions under Bush the Lesser. Speaking as someone who knows about guns, I can't think of anything he proposed that makes sense, save for things the NRA has long called for, such as increased mental health scrutiny---which I could point out again was essentially destroyed in this country largely through the efforts of progressives and outfits like the ACLU. The same people now squawking about the results and calling for gun bans.
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Windom URL

Rain Partier

Postby Windom URL » Mon Jan 21, 2013 9:34 am

Let's see what Israelis say about these comparisons--oh, surprise, they reject them outright and maintain never had the same problems with school shootings:

http://www.jpost.com/International/Arti ... ?id=297186

Daily News NEW YORK – Breaking a week-long silence after the devastating mass shooting at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Connecticut, the National Rifle Association’s executive vice president, Wayne LaPierre, is defending his lobby’s position by citing Israel for model school safety measures worth emulating in the US.

The statement comes days after President Barack Obama vowed to address gun violence in his State of the Union address next month, and to support the renewal of a ban on assault weapons that expired in 2004.

“Israel had a whole lot of school shootings until they did one thing,” LaPierre said on NBC’s Meet the Press. “They said, ‘We’re going to stop it,’ and they put armed security at every school, and they have not had a problem since then.”

To fortify all 130,000 schools in the United States would require manpower equal to twice the number of American troops currently in Afghanistan. But on a stateby- state level, some legislators – in Texas, Arizona and South Carolina, among others – are considering the cheaper prospect of arming teachers or encouraging similar measures that would provide schools with the opportunity, they say, to fight fire with fire.

LaPierre’s suggestion to place armed guards at schools was roundly criticized by gun control advocates. The New York Daily News ran a front page headline calling LaPierre “the craziest man on Earth.”

Jonathan Lowy, director of the Legal Action Center at the Brady Center to Prevent Gun Violence, told The Jerusalem Post that the NRA would “vehemently oppose” anything similar to Israel’s gun laws.

“Israel restricts firearms and military-style weapons far more than the United States has ever done, including ammunition,” Lowy said. “The NRA is simply making up their own facts.”

According to the NRA’s LaPierre, the gun rights advocacy group will not support any new gun control laws out of Washington. He added that the NRA’s efforts are now focused on making schools safer in America by arming “the good guys.”

The organization has recruited a former congressman, Asa Hutchinson, to put together a program allegedly modeled on Israeli security norms.

“If you got rid of guns in schools tomorrow throughout Israel, my guess is that terrorist attacks would be widespread,” John Lott, well known for his support for rights to carry concealed weapons in the US, as captured in his book The Bias Against Guns, told the Post.

“I don’t like the idea of armed guards because its very expensive, and they would just become targets themselves,” Lott said. “But Israel is a place we can learn from – its been the perfect laboratory, and has innovated when things haven’t worked because the problem there is so glaring.”

Israeli officials and academics, however, distanced themselves from comparing the gun situations in Israel and the US. Foreign Ministry spokesman Yigal Palmor said the situation in Israel was “fundamentally different” from that in the United States.

“We didn’t have a series of school shootings, and they had nothing to do with the issue at hand in the United States. We had to deal with terrorism,” Palmor told the Daily News.

“What removed the danger was not the armed guards but an overall anti-terror policy and anti-terror operations which brought street terrorism down to nearly zero over a number of years,” he said.

“It would be better not to drag Israel into what is an internal American discussion.”

In full agreement was Prof. Gerald Steinberg of Bar-Ilan University “The attempt to compare the two tragedies is absurd,” Steinberg told the Daily News.

“Palestinian terror attacks like one one at Maalot – the goal of which was to use the children as hostages in order to free other terrorists – are totally different from crimes committed by deranged people with guns.”

Gun control and the perceived proliferation of guns in Israel are unique to the country: While most Israelis are trained to use guns for self-defense during their time in the IDF, the weapons cannot be purchased as recreational tools or for personal protection without going through an extraordinarily strict process of background checks – both medical and criminal – as well as a competence test, a three-month waiting period and Public Security Ministry approval.

“Their message is an intended distraction from the demand of virtually all Americans that we have some sensible restrictions on guns,” Lowy added, referring to the NRA. “Yes, we have a bit of a gun culture in this country.

But there’s not a cultural history in America of having a thriving criminal gun market.”

The NRA is one of the most powerful lobbies in the US. It has over four million members and claims to speak for one in three American households.

“Everybody wants to take guns away from criminals,” gun expert Lott told the Post.

“But if you pass a law, who is most likely to obey it?” To counteract the NRA lobby, dozens of celebrities, including Jamie Foxx and Jennifer Aniston, are appearing in a public service announcement asking US citizens to demand tougher gun control.

The public service announcement – produced by Mayors Against Illegal Guns, a coalition of hundreds of US mayors led by Michael Bloomberg of New York City and Thomas Menino of Boston – also features appearances by Gwyneth Paltrow, Beyonce, Jennifer Garner, Christina Applegate, Julianne Moore, John Legend, Will Ferrell, Selena Gomez, Conan O’Brien, Chris Rock, Reese Witherspoon and others.
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Windom URL

Rain Partier

Postby Windom URL » Mon Jan 21, 2013 9:35 am

Board fucking up, multiples.

Honestly, I think we can put the Israel comparisons from NRA nutjobs like LaPierre to rest now.

Don't fall prey to demagoguery just because it sounds good.

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