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Victorian Squid
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Re: Gun Ads

Postby Victorian Squid » Sun Jan 20, 2013 5:54 pm

Now I'm sure someone will make another pithy but misinformed comment about Israel or something.

So I will just ask instead: Are you so-called responsible gun owners out there making the least little effort to not look like complete fucking retards? Because you're starting to look like a bunch of morons from here.

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Re: Gun Ads

Postby 3MJ » Sun Jan 20, 2013 6:05 pm

Two adults and three children are dead after being shot by a teenager in an Albuquerque home this morning.

The teen, whose exact age has not been released, has been arrested and booked on two counts of murder and three counts of child abuse resulting in death. Right now it's unclear what the boy's connection is to his five victims — a man, a woman, two girls and a boy. Police are also still working to figure out his motive.

Several guns were also found in the home, including an AR-15 semi-automatic rifle like the ones President Obama called on Congress to re-ban this week. Police are looking to figure out who owned the guns.

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Re: Gun Ads

Postby achilles » Sun Jan 20, 2013 7:25 pm

Victorian Squid wrote:Now I'm sure someone will make another pithy but misinformed comment about Israel or something.

So I will just ask instead: Are you so-called responsible gun owners out there making the least little effort to not look like complete fucking retards? Because you're starting to look like a bunch of morons from here.


Misinformation is the stock and trade of the anti-gun nuts. For example, calling the AR-15 and "assault weapon", or even and "assault rifle". The first is misleading; no military on earth would use such a gun as a weapon. The second is flat out wrong.

There is such a thing as an "assault rifle", and that aint it. Assault rifle is a term that originated in WWII with the Sturmgewehr 44, and refers to a select fire rifle. That is a rifle that can shoot more than one round per trigger pull. That has been ILLEGAL in the US since the 1930s.

An AR-15 is functionally no different from any other semi-automatic weapon. It is targeted by anti-gun nuts because it LOOKS mean, and thus is an easy target.

As for Israel, it is hardly misinformed to point out that they have used armed guards in schools to great effect for years. That is fact. These people are well trained for that task.
Achilles is the kind of evil that hollows out a volcano for a lair, and sends killer robots after his enemies.---Lord Simian

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Re: Gun Ads

Postby GLX » Sun Jan 20, 2013 11:17 pm

.....



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Re: Gun Ads

Postby MoneyMelon » Mon Jan 21, 2013 12:08 am

achilles wrote:
As for Israel, it is hardly misinformed to point out that they have used armed guards in schools to great effect for years. That is fact. These people are well trained for that task.


Let me preface by saying I'm not anti-gun. I don't own a gun but I have no problems with people having one for sports, hunting or to protect their home.

But the Israel thing I keep hearing....

What do you mean by great effect? I don't recall any rash of school shootings in Israel, let alone stories of armed guards stopping an attack. Israelis are also better trained with weapons because they're required by law to complete military service time. And their gun laws are more strict than the United States. Their gun culture is much, much different than the United States, and that's a country that's in a perpetual state of war. I think it's a poor example people keep throwing around.

Armed guards in every school in America is an unsettling proposition for me. Not to mention really expensive.

I think more than likely we just get idiots like the people in the TSA. Arming those people and then putting them around kids.....I dunno. Feels like that's asking for trouble. Not to mention its weird hearing conservatives asking for an expansion of government like that. I mean, that's a hell of a lot of security people to hire if its even only one guard per school in America.

We already saw an incident where the armed guard at a school in Michigan, put in place in response to the shooting in Newton, left his gun laying around in one of the school's bathrooms. Yikes. And this was a retired firearms instructor! If anybody, this is a guy youd think would be more responsible. More guns around kids doesn't seem like the answer to me.

I think some of Obama's points about gun control made sense. I think addressing the mental health issue is really important and I think every school and police department in the country should have an emergency plan in place to respond to an emergency if, god forbid, something like Sandy Hook ever happens again.

When it comes to the hardware....honestly I don't know enough about guns to even comment on it. I couldn't tell you the difference between a semi-auto or an assault rifle or whatever. My gun knowledge comes down to going to a few gun shops and a shooting range a few times and some target shooting in the woods in Pennsylvania when I was 15. Couldn't even tell you what kind of gun I used. I've managed to stay alive using my charm and good looks.

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Re: Gun Ads

Postby achilles » Mon Jan 21, 2013 9:21 am

To deal with the great effect part first---there were some terror attacks on schools that led to the policy of putting armed guards in schools. They probably were in the news at the time, but likely weren't played up all that much in American media since terror attacks in Israel aren't exactly unusual. And it was years ago. The great effect part comes in because there weren't any successful attacks on schools since.

As for why they're so good, it's true that they are ex military, but they also undergo extensive additional training in handling handguns and in protecting schools. Weeks worth of training.

We also have a pool of military vets who could undergo similar training. Israel also has very intense screening to determine who they even let into the training program, which weeds out the idiots and careless types, or those with mental problems.

As for Obama, he has a lot of nerve even suggesting new laws, since he didn't bother enforcing the laws already on the books. His prosecutions of gun crimes were considerably less than prosecutions under Bush the Lesser. Speaking as someone who knows about guns, I can't think of anything he proposed that makes sense, save for things the NRA has long called for, such as increased mental health scrutiny---which I could point out again was essentially destroyed in this country largely through the efforts of progressives and outfits like the ACLU. The same people now squawking about the results and calling for gun bans.
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Re: Gun Ads

Postby Victorian Squid » Mon Jan 21, 2013 9:34 am

Let's see what Israelis say about these comparisons--oh, surprise, they reject them outright and maintain never had the same problems with school shootings:

http://www.jpost.com/International/Arti ... ?id=297186

Daily News NEW YORK – Breaking a week-long silence after the devastating mass shooting at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Connecticut, the National Rifle Association’s executive vice president, Wayne LaPierre, is defending his lobby’s position by citing Israel for model school safety measures worth emulating in the US.

The statement comes days after President Barack Obama vowed to address gun violence in his State of the Union address next month, and to support the renewal of a ban on assault weapons that expired in 2004.

“Israel had a whole lot of school shootings until they did one thing,” LaPierre said on NBC’s Meet the Press. “They said, ‘We’re going to stop it,’ and they put armed security at every school, and they have not had a problem since then.”

To fortify all 130,000 schools in the United States would require manpower equal to twice the number of American troops currently in Afghanistan. But on a stateby- state level, some legislators – in Texas, Arizona and South Carolina, among others – are considering the cheaper prospect of arming teachers or encouraging similar measures that would provide schools with the opportunity, they say, to fight fire with fire.

LaPierre’s suggestion to place armed guards at schools was roundly criticized by gun control advocates. The New York Daily News ran a front page headline calling LaPierre “the craziest man on Earth.”

Jonathan Lowy, director of the Legal Action Center at the Brady Center to Prevent Gun Violence, told The Jerusalem Post that the NRA would “vehemently oppose” anything similar to Israel’s gun laws.

“Israel restricts firearms and military-style weapons far more than the United States has ever done, including ammunition,” Lowy said. “The NRA is simply making up their own facts.”

According to the NRA’s LaPierre, the gun rights advocacy group will not support any new gun control laws out of Washington. He added that the NRA’s efforts are now focused on making schools safer in America by arming “the good guys.”

The organization has recruited a former congressman, Asa Hutchinson, to put together a program allegedly modeled on Israeli security norms.

“If you got rid of guns in schools tomorrow throughout Israel, my guess is that terrorist attacks would be widespread,” John Lott, well known for his support for rights to carry concealed weapons in the US, as captured in his book The Bias Against Guns, told the Post.

“I don’t like the idea of armed guards because its very expensive, and they would just become targets themselves,” Lott said. “But Israel is a place we can learn from – its been the perfect laboratory, and has innovated when things haven’t worked because the problem there is so glaring.”

Israeli officials and academics, however, distanced themselves from comparing the gun situations in Israel and the US. Foreign Ministry spokesman Yigal Palmor said the situation in Israel was “fundamentally different” from that in the United States.

“We didn’t have a series of school shootings, and they had nothing to do with the issue at hand in the United States. We had to deal with terrorism,” Palmor told the Daily News.

“What removed the danger was not the armed guards but an overall anti-terror policy and anti-terror operations which brought street terrorism down to nearly zero over a number of years,” he said.

“It would be better not to drag Israel into what is an internal American discussion.”

In full agreement was Prof. Gerald Steinberg of Bar-Ilan University “The attempt to compare the two tragedies is absurd,” Steinberg told the Daily News.

“Palestinian terror attacks like one one at Maalot – the goal of which was to use the children as hostages in order to free other terrorists – are totally different from crimes committed by deranged people with guns.”

Gun control and the perceived proliferation of guns in Israel are unique to the country: While most Israelis are trained to use guns for self-defense during their time in the IDF, the weapons cannot be purchased as recreational tools or for personal protection without going through an extraordinarily strict process of background checks – both medical and criminal – as well as a competence test, a three-month waiting period and Public Security Ministry approval.

“Their message is an intended distraction from the demand of virtually all Americans that we have some sensible restrictions on guns,” Lowy added, referring to the NRA. “Yes, we have a bit of a gun culture in this country.

But there’s not a cultural history in America of having a thriving criminal gun market.”

The NRA is one of the most powerful lobbies in the US. It has over four million members and claims to speak for one in three American households.

“Everybody wants to take guns away from criminals,” gun expert Lott told the Post.

“But if you pass a law, who is most likely to obey it?” To counteract the NRA lobby, dozens of celebrities, including Jamie Foxx and Jennifer Aniston, are appearing in a public service announcement asking US citizens to demand tougher gun control.

The public service announcement – produced by Mayors Against Illegal Guns, a coalition of hundreds of US mayors led by Michael Bloomberg of New York City and Thomas Menino of Boston – also features appearances by Gwyneth Paltrow, Beyonce, Jennifer Garner, Christina Applegate, Julianne Moore, John Legend, Will Ferrell, Selena Gomez, Conan O’Brien, Chris Rock, Reese Witherspoon and others.
Last edited by Victorian Squid on Mon Jan 21, 2013 9:49 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Gun Ads

Postby Victorian Squid » Mon Jan 21, 2013 9:35 am

Board fucking up, multiples.

Honestly, I think we can put the Israel comparisons from NRA nutjobs like LaPierre to rest now.

Don't fall prey to demagoguery just because it sounds good.
Last edited by Victorian Squid on Mon Jan 21, 2013 9:58 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Gun Ads

Postby Victorian Squid » Mon Jan 21, 2013 11:21 am

Jubilee wrote:Two adults and three children are dead after being shot by a teenager in an Albuquerque home this morning.

The teen, whose exact age has not been released, has been arrested and booked on two counts of murder and three counts of child abuse resulting in death. Right now it's unclear what the boy's connection is to his five victims — a man, a woman, two girls and a boy. Police are also still working to figure out his motive.

Several guns were also found in the home, including an AR-15 semi-automatic rifle like the ones President Obama called on Congress to re-ban this week. Police are looking to figure out who owned the guns.


He primarily used the AR-15, and had plans to kill people at a local Walmart:

AP

More details are emerging about Nehemiah Griego, the 15-year-old suspected gunman accused of shooting his father, mother, and three siblings to death with an AR-15 — and they add up to a gruesome picture of a teenager with a van packed with guns and a plan to shoot up his local Walmart in New Mexico. Here's what we've learned since the shooting early on Saturday:

Police have released the names of the victims:
Greg Griego 51, a former pastor with Calvary Church in Albuquerque, his wife Sara Greigo 40, and 9-year-old Zephania Griego, 5-year-old Jael Griego, and 2-year-old Angelina Griego.
Nehemiah Griego, Greg and Sarah's home-schooled son, shot his mother and his brothers in their beds multiple times at around 1 a.m. Saturday and then waited for his father, police said. There were 10 Griego children, but only the youngest were home on Friday night.
"[A]uthorities believe Nehemiah then put several loaded weapons, including the assault rifle, in the family van with the plan to drive to the nearest Walmart, gun down more people and eventually die in a shootout with police," report The Albuquerque Journal's Jeff Proctor and Patrick Lohmann. The Journal also reports that Griego called a friend before carrying out the rest of his plan, and that the friend got Griego to meet him at the church where Griego's father was a pastor.
The two guns used in the shooting — an AR-15 assault rifle and a .22 caliber pistol — seem to have belonged to Griego's parents. Griego "had a minor disagreement with his mother on Friday night," The Journal reports, adding:
Authorities believe Nehemiah’s parents owned the guns. The weapons had been stored in a closet, not in a gun safe. They also believe Nehemiah may have had violent fantasies including killing and murder-suicide scenarios for much of his life.


And don't blame video games, because Griego was not allowed to play them. Again, from Proctor and Lohmann's Journal reporting:
Another neighbor said Nehemiah wanted to be a soldier. Although he always wore Army clothing and camouflage, Nehemiah wasn’t allowed to play violent video games, the neighbor said, since the boy’s parents didn’t allow anything “dirty or violent” and limited TV watching.
Griego is currently in a juvenile detention center, and authorities are looking more more information: "Nehemiah Griego was charged with two counts of murder and three counts of 'child abuse resulting in death.' A motive is unclear, and authorities plan to hold a news conference Tuesday," reports The New York Daily News's Erik Ortiz.

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Re: Gun Ads

Postby Victorian Squid » Mon Jan 21, 2013 11:24 am

Ah yes, doomsday religions, mental illness, and unlocked guns.

Great mixture.

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Re: Gun Ads

Postby 3MJ » Mon Jan 21, 2013 12:10 pm

Thank fuck he didn't get to that walmart.

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Re: Gun Ads

Postby oogy » Mon Jan 21, 2013 12:59 pm

A member of my family posted something similar to this on the Facebook this morning. :smt011

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Ron Swanson wrote:You may have thought you heard me say I wanted a lot of bacon and eggs, but what I said was: Give me all the bacon and eggs you have.

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Re: Gun Ads

Postby CountD » Mon Jan 21, 2013 1:01 pm

arming every school with vets or trained ex militia is just not fiscally feasible.

now I didn't fact check this (yet), but wasn't there a huge uptick in licenses to carry recently (like 4 million?)

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Re: Gun Ads

Postby achilles » Mon Jan 21, 2013 1:40 pm

Victorian Squid wrote:Let's see what Israelis say about these comparisons--oh, surprise, they reject them outright and maintain never had the same problems with school shootings:

http://www.jpost.com/International/Arti ... ?id=297186




Let's just address the armed guards thing. You can find a lot of folks even in the Israeli government who want and believe all sorts of things. But he doesn't say WHY dealing with a maniac trying to shoot up a school is different than dealing with a terrorist trying to shoot up a school. Largely because it isn't, except maybe that the terrorist is likely to be more practised and to have scoped out the school better. So really, all that guy says is that he doesn't like guns.

Now you can debate the logistics of putting armed guards in schools. Though we do have thousands of unemployed vets who could be trained for the purpose. And let's face it, elites like Obama do seem to be fine with them as long as it's their children being guarded. So why not at least see if it's feasible to try it for the rest of us?

After all, as Lott and other point out, banning guns will only restrict them from law abiding citizens, not someone who is going to kill people. Some of the highest crime rates in the nation come from the places with the strictest gun control laws---because criminals are the only ones with guns.
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Re: Gun Ads

Postby achilles » Mon Jan 21, 2013 1:45 pm

CountD wrote:arming every school with vets or trained ex militia is just not fiscally feasible.

now I didn't fact check this (yet), but wasn't there a huge uptick in licenses to carry recently (like 4 million?)


Possibly not. Perhaps is Obama took fewer $10 million dollar vacations at taxpayer expense, or at less Wagyu beef...

As for CCWs, I also don't know. I expect there's been an uptick, but how many I couldn't say.

Though every time a new location passes a shall issue law, (whereby you can't deny a CCW to someone who meets the requirements, unlike say Orange County CA, where you have to be rich and bribe the sheriff to get one), crime rates drop.
Achilles is the kind of evil that hollows out a volcano for a lair, and sends killer robots after his enemies.---Lord Simian

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