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Iron Man 3 talk (spoilers)

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Re: Iron Man 3 talk (spoilers)

Postby Draco x » Tue May 21, 2013 6:50 pm

Just saw the movie over the weekend and by god did they fuck up the Mandarin. How are they going to take Tony's arch-nemesis and make him into some dime store bin Laden/ Russell Brand knockoff who is just a pawn for a z-list character from the comics? It's the same shit they pulled in Iron Man 2 when they sidelined Justin Hammer by turning him into some yuppie dimwit in favor of a dull forgetable character like Whiplash. Why do the directors and writers of the IM movies always fuck up the villains with the exception of Obadiah Stane? Was it that hard for them to get the bad guys right or were they too lazy to do any real research?

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Re: Iron Man 3 talk (spoilers)

Postby Grayson » Tue May 21, 2013 7:35 pm

draco x wrote:Just saw the movie over the weekend and by god did they fuck up the Mandarin. How are they going to take Tony's arch-nemesis and make him into some dime store bin Laden/ Russell Brand knockoff who is just a pawn for a z-list character from the comics? It's the same shit they pulled in Iron Man 2 when they sidelined Justin Hammer by turning him into some yuppie dimwit in favor of a dull forgetable character like Whiplash. Why do the directors and writers of the IM movies always fuck up the villains with the exception of Obadiah Stane? Was it that hard for them to get the bad guys right or were they too lazy to do any real research?


The portrayal of the Ben Kingsley Mandarin was actually one of the parts of the movie that I liked. The only part of the Mandarin story that I didn't care for in the movie was the reveal at the end that Aldrich Killian had been the real Mandarin all along.

Usually I am all for adapting characters as close to the source as possible but the Mandarin really is one of those tricky characters that would be difficult to successfully pull off. You go too much in one direction and he can be extremely offensive, you go too much in another direction and his back story is too convoluted to explain in one movie. If they were going to use the real Mandarin from the comics, they really should have quietly built him up during the first two movies. They didn't ever really have to show him in those movies but they should have acknowledged the fact that he was in the background quietly guiding events in the direction he wanted them to go, before fully integrating him in the third.
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Re: Iron Man 3 talk (spoilers)

Postby Draco x » Tue May 21, 2013 7:47 pm

Grayson wrote:
The portrayal of the Ben Kingsley Mandarin was actually one of the parts of the movie that I liked. The only part of the Mandarin story that I didn't care for in the movie was the reveal at the end that Aldrich Killian had been the real Mandarin all along.

Usually I am all for adapting characters as close to the source as possible but the Mandarin really is one of those tricky characters that would be difficult to successfully pull off. You go too much in one direction and he can be extremely offensive, you go too much in another direction and his back story is too convoluted to explain in one movie. If they were going to use the real Mandarin from the comics, they really should have quietly built him up during the first two movies. They didn't ever really have to show him in those movies but they should have acknowledged the fact that he was in the background quietly guiding events in the direction he wanted them to go, before fully integrating him in the third.


I respectfully disagree here as there was so much they could have done with the character if they had chosen to do it right. I mean I already had gripes with the acting choice as I felt like Ken Watanabe, Collin Chou, Russell Wong or Cary Tagawa would have been preferable. However you did a make a good point by saying that he should have appeared before the third film as the Mandarin should have been in the second one instead of a shitty villain like Whiplash.
It just felt like the writers and director of the third film decided just to add him because of the fans demand but didn't know jack squat about the character and just turned him into a generic terrorist as their iteration of the villain didn't really do anything. Heck, even Bane from the Dark Knight Rises actually did something despite being the pawn for a female villain nobody cared about in the film. I would have loved to have seen Iron Man and the Mandarin square off in the end as that fight would have been way better.

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Re: Iron Man 3 talk (spoilers)

Postby Chris » Tue May 21, 2013 8:22 pm

Eh. So he wasn't the comic version of the character.. big whoop. :smt102

I got an entertaining movie out of it, and a cool reveal with Aldritch being the real Mandarin, and Ben Kingsley knocking it out of the park as Trevor. I'll take quality, regardless of whether or not it's accurate to the comics.
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Re: Iron Man 3 talk (spoilers)

Postby PDH » Tue May 21, 2013 8:46 pm

The Mandarin from the comics is shit. The movie version was a really interesting take on the character that I wasn't expecting at all. Probably the best they could have done under the circumstances.

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Re: Iron Man 3 talk (spoilers)

Postby fieldy snuts » Tue May 21, 2013 9:05 pm

The Mandarin from the comics was originally created as a racist stereotype and his origins to this day still are, it was basically fear-mongering centered around yellow peril and the red threat from that era :lol:

In a way Shane Black stuck true to the Mandarin by combining every terrorism stereotype into his Mandarin to make him the same concept for a modern age but in a way that acknowledged why the character was created the way he did.

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Re: Iron Man 3 talk (spoilers)

Postby Woody » Wed May 22, 2013 3:00 pm

Came here hoping for extreme outrage over Mandarin's twist.

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Re: Iron Man 3 talk (spoilers)

Postby habitual » Wed May 22, 2013 3:07 pm

draco x wrote:
I respectfully disagree here as there was so much they could have done with the character if they had chosen to do it right. I mean I already had gripes with the acting choice as I felt like Ken Watanabe, Collin Chou, Russell Wong or Cary Tagawa would have been preferable. However you did a make a good point by saying that he should have appeared before the third film as the Mandarin should have been in the second one instead of a shitty villain like Whiplash.
It just felt like the writers and director of the third film decided just to add him because of the fans demand but didn't know jack squat about the character and just turned him into a generic terrorist as their iteration of the villain didn't really do anything. Heck, even Bane from the Dark Knight Rises actually did something despite being the pawn for a female villain nobody cared about in the film. I would have loved to have seen Iron Man and the Mandarin square off in the end as that fight would have been way better.


You realize that having a villain that identifies as Chinese was never going to make it past the censors over there don't you?

That's going to kill off at least a third of your international market, so as an idea it's D.O.A..

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Re: Iron Man 3 talk (spoilers)

Postby outsider » Wed May 22, 2013 3:16 pm

Having the Mandarin be a guy with 10 magical rings could work, but it would take a lot of shit build-up to justify each ring having such specific powers/properties. The tesseract/cosmic cube was basically an energy source from alien tech, so it was a lot more accessible of an idea for audiences to get into.

To just have this Chinese dude show up with magic rings? Meh, that doesn't work in Iron Man's corner of the Marvel movieverse. The Extremis stuff was really pushing it, but we were all there to see the Tony & Pepper show anyway.

I honestly don't know that another Iron Man movie even needs a villain - why not just make a comedy/drama with RDJr just being Tony? I'd buy a ticket for that. 8)
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Re: Iron Man 3 talk (spoilers)

Postby Draco x » Thu May 23, 2013 6:19 pm

Chris wrote:Eh. So he wasn't the comic version of the character.. big whoop. :smt102

I got an entertaining movie out of it, and a cool reveal with Aldritch being the real Mandarin, and Ben Kingsley knocking it out of the park as Trevor. I'll take quality, regardless of whether or not it's accurate to the comics.


I would love to how you would react if they did the same thing with the movie Joker or Dr. Doom by having it reveal that there were just glorified henchmen for bit characters nobody cared about. The fact of the matter is that the director just proved that he knows nothing about the character of the Mandarin and just resorted to making a mockery out of the villain. And like I said it's not the first Iron Man villain they fucked up movie wise as they also reduced Justin Hammer into being a joke character as well. I shudder to wonder which other villain they're going to mess up when Iron Man 4 comes out down the road.

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Re: Iron Man 3 talk (spoilers)

Postby Victorian Squid » Thu May 23, 2013 6:24 pm

Everyone keeps forgetting that Iron Man 3 is a Chinese/American co-produced film, with investment from the Chinese gov't and a list of conditions that had to be met.

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Re: Iron Man 3 talk (spoilers)

Postby Grayson » Thu May 23, 2013 6:25 pm

draco x wrote:I would love to how you would react if they did the same thing with the movie Joker or Dr. Doom by having it reveal that there were just glorified henchmen for bit characters nobody cared about. The fact of the matter is that the director just proved that he knows nothing about the character of the Mandarin and just resorted to making a mockery out of the villain. And like I said it's not the first Iron Man villain they fucked up movie wise as they also reduced Justin Hammer into being a joke character as well. I shudder to wonder which other villain they're going to mess up when Iron Man 4 comes out down the road.


Honestly, it's not like Iron Man is known for his rogue's gallery. :smt102

Yes, Mandarin is Iron Man's primary antagonist but he is nowhere near being in the same category as characters like the Joker or Doctor Doom. I would be willing to wager that if you were to ask the average comic reader to list off the top 100 villains from either DC or Marvel, the Mandarin would either be very low on that list or not appear at all.
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Re: Iron Man 3 talk (spoilers)

Postby Draco x » Thu May 23, 2013 6:26 pm

PDH wrote:The Mandarin from the comics is shit. The movie version was a really interesting take on the character that I wasn't expecting at all. Probably the best they could have done under the circumstances.


So you think turning him into a bin Laden ripoff who then turned out to be some stoned actor who as actually the pawn of a character who was more than a footnote in the actual comicbooks was interesting? They basically added the Mandarin to appease the fans while knowing nothing about the character at all and were obviously too lazy to do any real research.
Now while Guy Pearce did a good job portraying the villain does any of the Iron Mans really give a shit about Aldrich Killian? I really doubt that he will ever be mentioned again now that the movie came out. They had a golden opportunity to use the Mandarin in the movies and they screwed it up royally just like how Raimi fucked up Venom in the Spiderman 3 movie by casting the kid from 70's Show.

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Re: Iron Man 3 talk (spoilers)

Postby Grayson » Thu May 23, 2013 6:33 pm

draco x wrote:They had a golden opportunity to use the Mandarin in the movies and they screwed it up royally just like how Raimi fucked up Venom in the Spiderman 3 movie by casting the kid from 70's Show.


In Raimi's defense, he never wanted to use Venom in the first place. He was pressured by the studio to use the character because the fans kept asking for it. Venom is another character who needs to be worked into the film series over time. Also, Topher Grace may have been a bad Venom but he was better than either of the films leads.
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Re: Iron Man 3 talk (spoilers)

Postby Draco x » Thu May 23, 2013 6:33 pm

fieldy snuts wrote:The Mandarin from the comics was originally created as a racist stereotype and his origins to this day still are, it was basically fear-mongering centered around yellow peril and the red threat from that era :lol:

In a way Shane Black stuck true to the Mandarin by combining every terrorism stereotype into his Mandarin to make him the same concept for a modern age but in a way that acknowledged why the character was created the way he did.


And there within lies the problem with this perception of the character as a racial stereotype. The Mandarin is more than just some Fu Man Chu lite villain and anyone who reads the comics knows this off hand. This is a guy that is also a tech expert whose genius is up there with Tony. All they had to to negate any fears of racial stereotyping was to cast him as a businessman who is a rival of Tony's and could build up on that. However, this would actually take proper research which Shane Black obviously doesn't know enough about.

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