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Iron Man 3 talk (spoilers)

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Re: Iron Man 3 talk (spoilers)

Postby Draco x » Thu May 23, 2013 6:35 pm

Grayson wrote:
In Raimi's defense, he never wanted to use Venom in the first place. He was pressured by the studio to use the character because the fans kept asking for it. Venom is another character who needs to be worked into the film series over time. Also, Topher Grace may have been a bad Venom but he was better than either of the films leads.


Yeah, I was aware of that myself but it just came off like Raimi purposely made Venom suck just to spite the fans and the studios in favor of his mancrush on Sandman.

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Re: Iron Man 3 talk (spoilers)

Postby Draco x » Thu May 23, 2013 6:36 pm

Woody wrote:Came here hoping for extreme outrage over Mandarin's twist.

Draco delivers


Others will follow rest assured. :-D :-D :-D

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Re: Iron Man 3 talk (spoilers)

Postby Draco x » Thu May 23, 2013 6:41 pm

habitual wrote:
You realize that having a villain that identifies as Chinese was never going to make it past the censors over there don't you?

That's going to kill off at least a third of your international market, so as an idea it's D.O.A..

Hab


You do realize that the Mandarin has also appeared in videogames and cartoons as how he is comics so I am not getting why there would be some kind of purported backlash from the Asian community unless Disney obviously believes this for whatever reason.

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Re: Iron Man 3 talk (spoilers)

Postby Grayson » Thu May 23, 2013 6:43 pm

draco x wrote:Yeah, I was aware of that myself but it just came off like Raimi purposely made Venom suck just to spite the fans and the studios in favor of his mancrush on Sandman.


Raimi's depiction of the Sandman wasn't that far off. The character eventually reformed and became a reserve member of the Avengers for crying out loud. Though he did backslide into villainy once again... :oops:

I think the Venom thing was simply a half-hearted attempt to get the studio and the fans off of his back so that he could at least attempt to make the rest of the movie his way.
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Re: Iron Man 3 talk (spoilers)

Postby Chris » Thu May 23, 2013 6:43 pm

draco x wrote:
I would love to how you would react if they did the same thing with the movie Joker or Dr. Doom by having it reveal that there were just glorified henchmen for bit characters nobody cared about. The fact of the matter is that the director just proved that he knows nothing about the character of the Mandarin and just resorted to making a mockery out of the villain. And like I said it's not the first Iron Man villain they fucked up movie wise as they also reduced Justin Hammer into being a joke character as well. I shudder to wonder which other villain they're going to mess up when Iron Man 4 comes out down the road.


I'm sure the director (and Kevin Feige) know all about the Mandarin, and decided to go in a different direction with the character.

I guess I just care more about getting a good story than staying 100% true to the comics. :smt102

And no, he wasn't a glorified henchman for a bit character nobody cared about. Aldritch was the Mandarin. That was the reveal. The Mandarin was not anybody's henchman. It's more akin to Ra's Al Ghul being a fake in Batman Begins, and Liam Neeson being the real Ra's. But I didn't see anywhere near the amount of complaints there. :smt102 The character you thought was going to be the Mandarin was not. That's just a different take on the character. If Guy Pierce's role was played by an asian dude, for example.. would that have been better for you? Have it be the same exact thing, just an asian as Aldritch Killian?
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Re: Iron Man 3 talk (spoilers)

Postby Draco x » Thu May 23, 2013 6:44 pm

outsider wrote:Having the Mandarin be a guy with 10 magical rings could work, but it would take a lot of shit build-up to justify each ring having such specific powers/properties. The tesseract/cosmic cube was basically an energy source from alien tech, so it was a lot more accessible of an idea for audiences to get into.

To just have this Chinese dude show up with magic rings? Meh, that doesn't work in Iron Man's corner of the Marvel movieverse. The Extremis stuff was really pushing it, but we were all there to see the Tony & Pepper show anyway.

I honestly don't know that another Iron Man movie even needs a villain - why not just make a comedy/drama with RDJr just being Tony? I'd buy a ticket for that. 8)


Now this is what Shane Black could have done if he wanted to make the character work by establishing the rings were connected to the Cosmic Cube amongst other better ideas rather than the poor piss shit job he did in the film.

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Re: Iron Man 3 talk (spoilers)

Postby Draco x » Thu May 23, 2013 6:46 pm

Victorian Squid wrote:Everyone keeps forgetting that Iron Man 3 is a Chinese/American co-produced film, with investment from the Chinese gov't and a list of conditions that had to be met.


So is there actual proof that the Chinese investors stated that a Chinese villain couldn't be used in their film or something or is this just some notion that has no credibility?

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Re: Iron Man 3 talk (spoilers)

Postby Draco x » Thu May 23, 2013 6:48 pm

Grayson wrote:
Honestly, it's not like Iron Man is known for his rogue's gallery. :smt102

Yes, Mandarin is Iron Man's primary antagonist but he is nowhere near being in the same category as characters like the Joker or Doctor Doom. I would be willing to wager that if you were to ask the average comic reader to list off the top 100 villains from either DC or Marvel, the Mandarin would either be very low on that list or not appear at all.


The Mandarin was featured in the Iron Man cartoons and appeared in videogames-plus he was listed on the IGN List at number 44 of top villains so I don't know about the notion that nobody knows who he is. While he may not be as popular as Luthor, Doom, Joker or so on, he is known in the comicbook community.

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Re: Iron Man 3 talk (spoilers)

Postby Grayson » Thu May 23, 2013 6:50 pm

draco x wrote:So is there actual proof that the Chinese investors stated that a Chinese villain couldn't be used in their film or something or is this just some notion that has no credibility?


It's a similar situation to the remake of Red Dawn. Originally the forces invading US soil were supposed to be Chinese, however, the studio stalled the release of the film so that they could go back and replace the Chinese imagery with North Korean. This was done because the film was receiving harsh criticism from Chinese new sources who felt that American was trying to "demonize China."
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Re: Iron Man 3 talk (spoilers)

Postby Grayson » Thu May 23, 2013 6:54 pm

draco x wrote:The Mandarin was featured in the Iron Man cartoons and appeared in videogames-plus he was listed on the IGN List at number 44 of top villains so I don't know about the notion that nobody knows who he is. While he may not be as popular as Luthor, Doom, Joker or so on, he is known in the comicbook community.


I didn't say that nobody knows who he is, just that he is not as well known as other villains such as the Joker and Doctor Doom. I stand by my opinion that if you were to ask the average comic fan to make a list of the Top 100 villains from the big 2, the Mandarin would either be near the bottom or not on the list at all. In fact, I would say that is true about most of Iron Man's rogues gallery.
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Re: Iron Man 3 talk (spoilers)

Postby Draco x » Thu May 23, 2013 7:03 pm

Chris wrote:
I'm sure the director (and Kevin Feige) know all about the Mandarin, and decided to go in a different direction with the character.

I guess I just care more about getting a good story than staying 100% true to the comics. :smt102

And no, he wasn't a glorified henchman for a bit character nobody cared about. Aldritch was the Mandarin. That was the reveal. The Mandarin was not anybody's henchman. It's more akin to Ra's Al Ghul being a fake in Batman Begins, and Liam Neeson being the real Ra's. But I didn't see anywhere near the amount of complaints there. :smt102 The character you thought was going to be the Mandarin was not. That's just a different take on the character. If Guy Pierce's role was played by an asian dude, for example.. would that have been better for you? Have it be the same exact thing, just an asian as Aldritch Killian?


Aldritch Killian was a guy who killed himself himself off after making a very brief appearance in the Extremis storyline so I have yet to see why this would put him over another villain who has given Iron Man pause on multiple occasions in the comicbooks, videogames and even the cartoons. As I said very few people cared or knew who Killian was and that's not likely to change. The bottomline is that the Mandarin plot twist was just like the Bane/ Talia one in TDKR in the sense it was not interesting and was poorly executed. They could have at least had faux Mandarin fight Tony and have him be more than just some washed bum actor with a drug problem but they chose to make him into a joke.
As for having an Asian actor play a character who is actually Asian, well what do you think? Would you want Tony Stark to be played by an actor who is looks nothing like his comicbook counterpart?

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Re: Iron Man 3 talk (spoilers)

Postby Draco x » Thu May 23, 2013 7:04 pm

Grayson wrote:
It's a similar situation to the remake of Red Dawn. Originally the forces invading US soil were supposed to be Chinese, however, the studio stalled the release of the film so that they could go back and replace the Chinese imagery with North Korean. This was done because the film was receiving harsh criticism from Chinese new sources who felt that American was trying to "demonize China."


And again I say has Disney verified this claim out loud? If they have, please show me real proof.

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Re: Iron Man 3 talk (spoilers)

Postby Draco x » Thu May 23, 2013 7:07 pm

Grayson wrote:
I didn't say that nobody knows who he is, just that he is not as well known as other villains such as the Joker and Doctor Doom. I stand by my opinion that if you were to ask the average comic fan to make a list of the Top 100 villains from the big 2, the Mandarin would either be near the bottom or not on the list at all. In fact, I would say that is true about most of Iron Man's rogues gallery.


But in all fairness, they could almost say the same about Loki and they got him right because they researched the character for the Thor and Avengers movie. Heck even Bane is not that popular of a villain but Nolan actually understood the character and how he worked. To me it seemed that Shane Black had no clue how the Mandarin was as a character and chose to do a hatchet job on him.

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Re: Iron Man 3 talk (spoilers)

Postby Victorian Squid » Thu May 23, 2013 7:08 pm

draco x wrote:
So is there actual proof that the Chinese investors stated that a Chinese villain couldn't be used in their film or something or is this just some notion that has no credibility?


Lord save me from the internet.

The director has been pretty up front about it, besides being on record calling the comic book Mandarin a "racist caricature". Have you ever considered the tool called "google"? This has all been in the press for over a year. Try starting with the keywords "china iron man 3 investment disney mandarin" or something along those lines, is what I suggest to you.

China goes to great lengths to control their portrayal in popular media.

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Re: Iron Man 3 talk (spoilers)

Postby PDH » Thu May 23, 2013 7:09 pm

draco x wrote:
So you think turning him into a bin Laden ripoff who then turned out to be some stoned actor who as actually the pawn of a character who was more than a footnote in the actual comicbooks was interesting? They basically added the Mandarin to appease the fans while knowing nothing about the character at all and were obviously too lazy to do any real research.
Now while Guy Pearce did a good job portraying the villain does any of the Iron Mans really give a shit about Aldrich Killian? I really doubt that he will ever be mentioned again now that the movie came out. They had a golden opportunity to use the Mandarin in the movies and they screwed it up royally just like how Raimi fucked up Venom in the Spiderman 3 movie by casting the kid from 70's Show.


I think it's more interesting than the comic book Mandarin, yeah. I don't think he's a very good villain.

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