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[Cat-Scratch]

Actually, he's an anti-hero.

The original Az-Bats storyline was created as a smack to the faces of fans who begged DC to make Batman into Bat-Punisher, just another murder machine. The idiotic notion that the Darker and Edgier you make a character, the better was just as strong in the fanbase then as it is now. The only difference is that those fans weren't in charge of the characters then as they are now.

Nope, he was a villain that Batman tried to help turn hero. But like I said, he was broken beyond repair. He wants to be a hero, but can't be as he's not built to be. But he's also so broken, that he can't be the tool he meant to be. The villain he was meant to be. That's not an anti-hero so much but a character that's broken in a way that he'll never be either, but will be pushed to be one or the other, and resist it. Same when he'll try to be one or the other, he'll start to go the other way. It's in the character's nature, based on that origin and set up. Put simply, he's that cat that wants out when it's in, but in when it's out. To be pet but left alone. A walking contradiction.

Really? I don't recall that with the Sword mini. He was just a minion who was supposed to be mindless, like dear old dad, but wasn't.. 'cause he was a college/university student... and we all know how super smart they are.

[Cat-Scratch]

I'll never look at maple syrup in the same way.

So that's why you Canadians use it for...

Just David Bird.

The rest of us use it for pancakes and some other food.

[Cat-Scratch]

I kind of have to disagree about JPV. Broken characters are what DC lacks. Too many of their characters are archetypal heroes. Breaking them out of those molds like they are trying to do with SUperman or Captain Marvel doesn't work.

Having characters around like JPV is something DC could use rather trying to force Superman into being dark and edgy...

Go look at the present DC. Littered with broken characters, mostly due to bad editorial and writing. Also, this is DC, not Marvel. Marvel wrote the book on using broken characters and in all connotations. For DC, they can use them, but so far, they've not done all that well. Jason Todd could be argued as being used well, but JPV? Nope.

Never shove a square peg into a round hole. Use a hammer and make sure it's not an asshole.

Supreman can be dark, to some degree. He was not a bright character back in 1938. But he evolved, for a variety of reasons both good and bad, into what we had until recently. A hard departure won't work. But then, it could also be argued that Superman, and many other characters, suffer from what I like to call the Dr Strange syndrome. Basically, the fanbase is split on just what the character should be like. With Dr. Strange, the character has twisted in the wind in being a super-hero character, a horror/fantasy character, a blend of both, being serious sort, being a trickster sort... everyone has an idea of what they think the character is and will accept. Yet few agree with the chosen viewpoints. Result, the character sits, barely holding an ongoing series, clearly defined by the fans as what he is and here he is, one of the longest running characters Marvel has. One that always borders into being a major A-lister.. yet not.

[Arion]

Go look at the present DC. Littered with broken characters, mostly due to bad editorial and writing. Also, this is DC, not Marvel. Marvel wrote the book on using broken characters and in all connotations. For DC, they can use them, but so far, they've not done all that well. Jason Todd could be argued as being used well, but JPV? Nope.

Never shove a square peg into a round hole. Use a hammer and make sure it's not an asshole.

Supreman can be dark, to some degree. He was not a bright character back in 1938. But he evolved, for a variety of reasons both good and bad, into what we had until recently. A hard departure won't work. But then, it could also be argued that Superman, and many other characters, suffer from what I like to call the Dr Strange syndrome. Basically, the fanbase is split on just what the character should be like. With Dr. Strange, the character has twisted in the wind in being a super-hero character, a horror/fantasy character, a blend of both, being serious sort, being a trickster sort... everyone has an idea of what they think the character is and will accept. Yet few agree with the chosen viewpoints. Result, the character sits, barely holding an ongoing series, clearly defined by the fans as what he is and here he is, one of the longest running characters Marvel has. One that always borders into being a major A-lister.. yet not.

Dr. Strange is A list !

[draco x]

At least one of them would likely be outed as gay.

Probably the one named Jean Paul if history serves.

Well that would explain why he sucks with women-namely Talia, Lihly, Catwoman and Oracle.

[draco x]

This.

Some people don't realize that these characters existed pre-DiDio, and they were better-written back then.

Obviously Didio himself didn't get that message.

[draco x]

As for the characters in question, Valley is a decent character.
I don't care one bit about Jason Todd, post-resurrection.
Jean-Paul should trash Jason and leave him for the rats.

Well I believe that Jason was always more hated than Jean Paul ever was. At least JPV had a long running series and was an integral part of the Bat mythos. Jason on the other hand was voted to be killed off by the fans so there you go. Overall, neither of them are liked by the bat fans but at least Jean Paul was tolerable.
As for a fist-fight JPV would hurt Jason really badly but Jason is ruthless enough to cheat so it would be a tough fight.

[draco x]

I think with Jean Paul it was always going to be limited. You could try a Jason Bourne rif with him, but it would never hold. At the heart of it, he's a villain, not a hero. He's just an enforcer/assassin. He's a broken character from the get go. The readership will always be split on him being a broken hero or a broken villain, but he'd always be broken to them.

Jason on the other hand was an almost Damien Wayne decades before there was a Damian Wayne. He's been rendered redundant. That will always drag him down. Having it that he went south due to a little bit of brain damage plus Lazerus Pit crazies is not enough to make him that viable as the total preemptive/killthemall sort of Batman type. He'll always be contrast to Dick, Tim and very much so to Damien. A retcon could fix this, but I doubt it would be accepted by most readers as it would come off as it is, a forced change to make it easier to use the character that way.

That and putting both Jean and Jason in the same room is like putting two pissed off territorial cats. They'd kill each other and succeed. The only nastier thing would be to toss in Damien and The Joker. One very big bloody mess.

Yes, bad writing can do wonders to drag a character down.

I respectfully disagree with you on this one due to the fact that JPV was never meant to be a villain but a tormented anti-hero for the most part. When he first took over for his father as Azrael, he did end up siding with Bruce against Biis in his limited series and then went on to train with him and Tim up till Knightfall. However, when DC decided to make him replace Bruce after Bane broke his back, he was then turned into the psycho Batman replacement to boost sales and then Bruce back to show that only he deserved the mantle. After that, when he got his own series, he did redeem himself by shaking the control the Order Of St. Dumas had over him and regained the trust of the Bat Family. However, the problem with his series was that Denny O Neil ran out of ideas and resorted to JPV going insane again until the end of his series. Again just a case of bad writing. To me if they had brough back JPV instead of that shitty replacement Michael Lane who nobody cares about, it would have been more interesting.
As for Jason, I initially didn't care for his return but the Hush and Under The Hood arcs got me interested. Again the problem with Jason is that whenever there are attempts to make him interesting, some of the writers like Tony Daniel and Grant Morrisson mess him up. At least with Judd Winnick and Scott Lobdell, Jason has a personality and established mostly as an anti-hero.
Overall, I see JPV as the Wolverine of the Bat-books and Jason as the Punisher/ Deadpool of the Bat-books as well.

[draco x]

Nope, he was a villain that Batman tried to help turn hero. But like I said, he was broken beyond repair. He wants to be a hero, but can't be as he's not built to be. But he's also so broken, that he can't be the tool he meant to be. The villain he was meant to be. That's not an anti-hero so much but a character that's broken in a way that he'll never be either, but will be pushed to be one or the other, and resist it. Same when he'll try to be one or the other, he'll start to go the other way. It's in the character's nature, based on that origin and set up. Put simply, he's that cat that wants out when it's in, but in when it's out. To be pet but left alone. A walking contradiction.

Really? I don't recall that with the Sword mini. He was just a minion who was supposed to be mindless, like dear old dad, but wasn't.. 'cause he was a college/university student... and we all know how super smart they are.

For most of his career, he has been portrayed as a hero-even when he was psycho replacing Batman temporarily. Even around that time, JPV was under the influence of the System and wasn't in control of his actions for the most part. Jason on the other hand, it's more of the case of having anger issues and a twisted sense of right and wrong.
Remember, JPV at his worst only tried to kill criminals mostly such as Bane, Joker, Mr. Freeze, the Tally Man and let Abattoir and his cousin Graham die. Even Bruce at the end of his series said he wasn't evil but just crazy.