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Mark Waid is MAAADDD About Man of Steel (SPOILERS)

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Re: Mark Waid is MAAADDD About Man of Steel (SPOILERS)

Postby The Beast » Wed Nov 06, 2013 4:09 pm

habitual wrote:
Do you think he missed the part where Superman snapped the neck of the individual incessantly bitching about neck snapping? Incompatible indeed :groucho:

Hab


It may have escaped his notice but not mine, in fact the more I watch it, the more it strikes me as the intended punchline.



"C'mon, I couldn't have been the only one bored with this guy, right?"

The whole thing is a set up so Superman can snap some sentimental crybaby's neck! :lol:

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Re: Mark Waid is MAAADDD About Man of Steel (SPOILERS)

Postby Spektre » Wed Nov 06, 2013 9:47 pm

The Beast wrote:
It may have escaped his notice but not mine, in fact the more I watch it, the more it strikes me as the intended punchline.



"C'mon, I couldn't have been the only one bored with this guy, right?"

The whole thing is a set up so Superman can snap some sentimental crybaby's neck! :lol:


(sigh) Which you mental giants fail to notice is just as incompatible with Superman.
- Continuity is or it is not. There is no such thing as soft continuity.
- A character IS his continuity.
- Continuity is consistency of the characteristics of people, plot, objects, and places seen by the reader or viewer.

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Re: Mark Waid is MAAADDD About Man of Steel (SPOILERS)

Postby The Beast » Mon Nov 11, 2013 1:48 pm

Spektre wrote:
(sigh) Which you mental giants fail to notice is just as incompatible with Superman.


STFU Jimmy, dead fanboys don't bellyache. ;)

Besides, my GA Omnibus, back issues, DVDs, Blu-Ray and personal preference say otherwise.

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Re: Mark Waid is MAAADDD About Man of Steel (SPOILERS)

Postby Arion » Mon Nov 11, 2013 1:52 pm

The Beast wrote:
It may have escaped his notice but not mine, in fact the more I watch it, the more it strikes me as the intended punchline.



"C'mon, I couldn't have been the only one bored with this guy, right?"

The whole thing is a set up so Superman can snap some sentimental crybaby's neck! :lol:


Some guys were pretty shocked by the whole neck breaking thing.

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Re: Mark Waid is MAAADDD About Man of Steel (SPOILERS)

Postby The Beast » Mon Nov 11, 2013 1:59 pm

Arion wrote:
Some guys were pretty shocked by the whole neck breaking thing.


Yup and we spent the whole summer talking about it. Not only does controversy sell, it allowed WB to dominate the super hero news cycle for months.

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Re: Mark Waid is MAAADDD About Man of Steel (SPOILERS)

Postby Strict31 » Mon Nov 11, 2013 6:03 pm

Man of Steel was not my favorite superhero movie, but I liked it.

I didn't have the slightest problem with Superman killing Zod. I don't really have a problem with a character revealing complexity being being forced to make a difficult choice. It would have been overly convenient for the character if he could have found some way to spare Zod and live happily ever after. Problem was, Zod was growing more and more powerful as he acclimated to Earth. Literally moment by moment. And Superman probably didn't have the time to run down to Home Depot to buy a Phantom Zone Ray.

His choice was to either kill Zod on the spot, or watch Zod wreak havoc upon the entire world. It's an ugly and painful choice, and for most of Superman's career, he has the benefit of not being forced to make ugly choices.

In superhero comics, it's almost a given that the heroes have the ability to not only fight the bad guys, but also save innocent bystanders being placed in danger by their super-fights. I dunno if it classifies as a trope (maybe Herald can be consulted), but I think it's kinda clear from the movie that Superman had his hands rather full with all the Kryptonians trying to kill him all at once. Every time he turns around, somebody starts whuppin' on him from another direction in that Smallville fight.

Shit, man...did Waid complain this much when Superman threw that colossal beating on Darkseid in the final ep of JLU? How many buildings did Darkseid get punched through?

For a guy as powerful as Superman, the choices he faces are almost always easy ones. Easy choices are boring. Characters need to be challenged. If a character does everything perfectly, he becomes a dull character. And hey...it might be that many of Superman's writers over the years have forgotten that.
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Re: Mark Waid is MAAADDD About Man of Steel (SPOILERS)

Postby misac » Tue Nov 12, 2013 1:10 pm

Strict31 wrote:Man of Steel was not my favorite superhero movie, but I liked it.

I didn't have the slightest problem with Superman killing Zod. I don't really have a problem with a character revealing complexity being being forced to make a difficult choice. It would have been overly convenient for the character if he could have found some way to spare Zod and live happily ever after. Problem was, Zod was growing more and more powerful as he acclimated to Earth. Literally moment by moment. And Superman probably didn't have the time to run down to Home Depot to buy a Phantom Zone Ray.

His choice was to either kill Zod on the spot, or watch Zod wreak havoc upon the entire world. It's an ugly and painful choice, and for most of Superman's career, he has the benefit of not being forced to make ugly choices.

In superhero comics, it's almost a given that the heroes have the ability to not only fight the bad guys, but also save innocent bystanders being placed in danger by their super-fights. I dunno if it classifies as a trope (maybe Herald can be consulted), but I think it's kinda clear from the movie that Superman had his hands rather full with all the Kryptonians trying to kill him all at once. Every time he turns around, somebody starts whuppin' on him from another direction in that Smallville fight.

Shit, man...did Waid complain this much when Superman threw that colossal beating on Darkseid in the final ep of JLU? How many buildings did Darkseid get punched through?

For a guy as powerful as Superman, the choices he faces are almost always easy ones. Easy choices are boring. Characters need to be challenged. If a character does everything perfectly, he becomes a dull character. And hey...it might be that many of Superman's writers over the years have forgotten that.


I didn’t really mind Superman killing Zod. If anything it was a poor tactical decision by Zod putting himself in that predicament. :P
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Re: Mark Waid is MAAADDD About Man of Steel (SPOILERS)

Postby Spektre » Tue Nov 12, 2013 1:47 pm

The Beast wrote:
STFU Jimmy, dead fanboys don't bellyache. ;)

Besides, my GA Omnibus, back issues, DVDs, Blu-Ray and personal preference say otherwise.


When you start talking about Superman, let me know.
- Continuity is or it is not. There is no such thing as soft continuity.
- A character IS his continuity.
- Continuity is consistency of the characteristics of people, plot, objects, and places seen by the reader or viewer.

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Re: Mark Waid is MAAADDD About Man of Steel (SPOILERS)

Postby Spektre » Tue Nov 12, 2013 1:48 pm

The Beast wrote:
Yup and we spent the whole summer talking about it. Not only does controversy sell, it allowed WB to dominate the super hero news cycle for months.


Umm...so did Benghazi...
- Continuity is or it is not. There is no such thing as soft continuity.
- A character IS his continuity.
- Continuity is consistency of the characteristics of people, plot, objects, and places seen by the reader or viewer.

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Re: Mark Waid is MAAADDD About Man of Steel (SPOILERS)

Postby habitual » Tue Nov 12, 2013 2:00 pm

misac wrote:
I didn’t really mind Superman killing Zod. If anything it was a poor tactical decision by Zod putting himself in that predicament. :P


I think of it as the Kryptonian death by cop.

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Re: Mark Waid is MAAADDD About Man of Steel (SPOILERS)

Postby Herald » Tue Nov 12, 2013 2:06 pm

Strict31 wrote:In superhero comics, it's almost a given that the heroes have the ability to not only fight the bad guys, but also save innocent bystanders being placed in danger by their super-fights. I dunno if it classifies as a trope (maybe Herald can be consulted), but I think it's kinda clear from the movie that Superman had his hands rather full with all the Kryptonians trying to kill him all at once.


I'm so glad you asked. :-D

The trope in question is called "Railroading". Snyderman was Railroaded into killing by a cynical writer (David S. Goyer) and director (the guy who puts the "Snyder" in "Snyderman"), which is why the utterly compromised character they upchucked isn't Superman.

More Darker and Edgier garbage from people who do Believe a Man Can Fly, yet somehow can't Believe a Man Won't Kill. Call me when they find some people willing to do the job of portraying Superman RIGHT.

Every time he turns around, somebody starts whuppin' on him from another direction in that Smallville fight.

Shit, man...did Waid complain this much when Superman threw that colossal beating on Darkseid in the final ep of JLU? How many buildings did Darkseid get punched through?

For a guy as powerful as Superman, the choices he faces are almost always easy ones.


Not at all. It's harder to decide NOT to kill in such a dangerous situation as the one you mentioned. Snyderman took the EASY way out of his predicament, which is why he's a poor role model, and again, NOT Superman. And there's every reason to suspect that he'll continue to use this tactic in the future; after all, he did it this time, and it worked without a hitch! So, he has every reason to do it every time he gets in a situation he can't handle... and considering he's still a rookie, that's probably going to be a LOT of times. As I said earlier in this thread, the second Luthor pulls his "I didn't do it! Nobody saw me do it! You can't prove ANYthing!!" schtick, and Snyderman realizes that Lex is right, there's no concrete proof of his wrongdoing, and this guy's going to get off scot-free -- CRACK!!

That's the problem with going over that cliff the first time; It Gets Easier to justify it the next time, and the next time, and the next time...

Easy choices are boring.


Which is why Snyderman killing is boring.

You can find a TON of other characters with no problem killing, from Dirty Harry and James Bond, on down to two of Marvel's favorite sons, Wolverine and the Punisher. Some characters can and should take the harder path of NOT mowing down their adversaries like grass, like Superman.

Characters need to be challenged.


It's a challenge to stay on the "straight and narrow path" of not killing than to simply slaughter whatever gets in your way. When you're as powerful as Superman, you have to be more skillful and considerate to hit someone so that they're KOed without causing permanent damage or death. It's more difficult to restrain yourself -- ESPECIALLY if you're Superman -- than to completely cut loose and not give a (expletive of choice) about the well-being of your foes AND all innocent bystanders. You yourself mentioned JLU Superman; well, I'm pretty sure he mentioned this in a memorable Speech of some sort!! :wink: 8)

THAT is the difference between the REAL Superman and the cheap pretender that is Snyderman.

You also said, "In superhero comics, it's almost a given that the heroes have the ability to not only fight the bad guys, but also save innocent bystanders being placed in danger by their super-fights." Well, it's also a given that the heroes have the ability to fight the bad guys without massacring them, while still saving those innocent bystanders. And nobody exemplifies this particular given better than Superman. Again, it's how you tell the Real Steel Deal from Goyer and Snyder's craptastic fake; the latter FAILED this test!

If a character does everything perfectly, he becomes a dull character.


Superman -- or any other character -- can be imperfect without killing, as he's demonstrated numerous times before. (Interesting that one apparently has to resort to having a character murder people just to prove how "imperfect" said character is... :smt102) And hey... it IS that Snyderman's creators over the time they created this ill-considered movie have forgotten THAT.
Last edited by Herald on Tue Nov 12, 2013 2:40 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Mark Waid is MAAADDD About Man of Steel (SPOILERS)

Postby The Beast » Tue Nov 12, 2013 2:33 pm

Spektre wrote:
When you start talking about Uncle Superman, let me know.


Not much chance that's going to happen, other than to point out he sucks and hasn't sold well in decades.

Spektre wrote:
Umm...so did Benghazi...


He did, did he? Benghazi dominated the super hero news cycle this summer...? :lol:

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Re: Mark Waid is MAAADDD About Man of Steel (SPOILERS)

Postby The Beast » Tue Nov 12, 2013 2:39 pm

Herald wrote:
I'm so glad you asked. :-D

The trope in question is called "Railroading". Snyderman was Railroaded into killing by a cynical writer (David S. Goyer) and director (the guy who puts the "Snyder" in "Snyderman"), which is why the utterly compromised character they upchucked isn't Superman.

More Darker and Edgier garbage from people who do Believe a Man Can Fly, yet somehow can't Believe a Man Won't Kill. Call me when they find some people willing to do the job of portraying Superman RIGHT.



Not at all. It's harder to decide NOT to kill in such a dangerous situation as the one you mentioned. Snyderman took the EASY way out of his predicament, which is why he's a poor role model, and again, NOT Superman. And there's every reason to suspect that he'll continue to use this tactic in the future; after all, he did it this time, and it worked without a hitch! So, he has every reason to do it every time he gets in a situation he can't handle... and considering he's still a rookie, that's probably going to be a LOT of times. As I said earlier in this thread, the second Luthor pulls his "I didn't do it! Nobody saw me do it! You can't prove ANYthing!!" schtick, and Snyderman realizes that Lex is right, there's no concrete proof of his wrongdoing, and this guy's going to get off scot-free -- CRACK!!

That's the problem with going over that cliff the first time; It Gets Easier to justify it the next time, and the next time, and the next time...



Which is why Snyderman killing is boring.

You can find a TON of other characters with no problem killing, from Dirty Harry and James Bond, on down to two of Marvel's favorite sons, Wolverine and the Punisher. Some characters can and should take the harder path of NOT mowing down their adversaries like grass, like Superman.



It's a challenge to stay on the "straight and narrow path" of not killing than to simply slaughter whatever gets in your way. You have to be more skillful to hit someone so that they're KOed without causing permanent damage or death. It's VASTLY more difficult to restrain yourself -- ESPECIALLY if you're Superman -- than to completely cut loose and not give a (expletive of choice) about the well-being of your foes AND all innocent bystanders. You mentioned JLU Superman; well, I'm pretty sure he mentioned this in a memorable Speech of some sort!! :wink: 8)

THAT is the difference between the REAL Superman and the cheap pretender that is Snyderman.

You also said, "In superhero comics, it's almost a given that the heroes have the ability to not only fight the bad guys, but also save innocent bystanders being placed in danger by their super-fights." Well, it's also a given that the heroes have the ability to fight the bad guys without massacring them. And nobody exemplifies this very given better than Superman. Again, it's how you tell the Real Steel Deal from a pitiful fake.



Superman -- or any other character -- can be imperfect without killing, as he's demonstrated numerous times before. (Interesting that one apparently has to resort to having a character murder people just to prove how "imperfect" said character is... :smt102) And hey... it IS that Snyderman's creators over the time they created this ill-considered movie have forgotten THAT.


How do I enable the ignore feature from my ipad?

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Re: Mark Waid is MAAADDD About Man of Steel (SPOILERS)

Postby Herald » Tue Nov 12, 2013 2:43 pm

The Beast wrote:How do I enable the ignore feature from my ipad?


Sorry that the truth hurts you that much. :smt102

Bye.

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Re: Mark Waid is MAAADDD About Man of Steel (SPOILERS)

Postby Spektre » Tue Nov 12, 2013 2:43 pm

Herald wrote:
I'm so glad you asked. :-D

The trope in question is called "Railroading". Snyderman was Railroaded into killing by a cynical writer (David S. Goyer) and director (the guy who puts the "Snyder" in "Snyderman"), which is why the utterly compromised character they upchucked isn't Superman.

More Darker and Edgier garbage from people who DO Believe a Man Can Fly, yet somehow can't Believe a Man Won't Kill. Call me when they find some people willing to do the job RIGHT.



Not at all. It's harder to decide NOT to kill in such a dangerous situation as the one you mentioned. Snyderman took the EASY way out of his predicament, which is why he's a poor role model, and again, NOT Superman. And there's every reason to suspect that he'll continue to use this tactic in the future; after all, he did it this time, and it worked without a hitch! So, he has every reason to do it every time he gets in a situation he can't handle. That's the problem with going over that cliff the first time; It Gets Easier to justify it the next time, and the next time, and the next time...



Which is why Snyderman killing is boring.

You can find a TON of other characters with no problem killing, from Dirty Harry and James Bond, on down to two of Marvel's favorite sons, Wolverine and the Punisher. Some characters can and should take the harder path of NOT mowing down their adversaries like grass, like Superman.



It's a challenge to stay on the "straight and narrow path" of not killing than to simply slaughter whatever gets in your way. You have to be more skillful to hit someone so that they're KOed without causing permanent damage or death. It's VASTLY more difficult to restrain yourself -- ESPECIALLY if you're Superman -- than to completely cut loose and not give a (expletive of choice) about the well-being of your foes AND all innocent bystanders. You mentioned JLU Superman; well, I'm pretty sure he mentioned this in a memorable Speech of some sort!! :wink: 8)

THAT is the difference between the REAL Superman and the cheap pretender that is Snyderman.

You also said, "In superhero comics, it's almost a given that the heroes have the ability to not only fight the bad guys, but also save innocent bystanders being placed in danger by their super-fights." Well, it's also a given that the heroes have the ability to fight the bad guys without massacring them. And nobody exemplifies this very given better than Superman. Again, it's how you tell the Real Steel Deal from a pitiful fake.



Superman -- or any other character -- can be imperfect without killing, as he's demonstrated numerous times before. (Interesting that one apparently has to resort to having a character murder people just to prove how "imperfect" said character is... :smt102) And hey... it IS that Snyderman's creators over the time they created this ill-considered movie have forgotten THAT.


A well known speech that included the phrase showing even THEN he was not going to use deadly force. Something to the effect of, "But you can take it, can'tcha big man."

Superman doesn't kill.
- Continuity is or it is not. There is no such thing as soft continuity.
- A character IS his continuity.
- Continuity is consistency of the characteristics of people, plot, objects, and places seen by the reader or viewer.

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