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Spacedog

Expert Post Whore

Postby Spacedog » Sun Dec 25, 2016 8:35 pm

Kurosawa wrote:
It never worked even after COIE. They were retconning Post-COIE stories a year or two after they were written. What is so terrible about COIE is it was destructive in nature-it destroyed worlds, and it destroyed stories. Never before COIE was it an accepted idea to just throw away old stories. So anything you read "counted" one way or another. Alan Moore warned them about that when they rebooted Superman, and John Byrne offered to work with the previous history of the character. Either everything counts or nothing does. Mostly they screwed up by trying to cherrypick some stories from Pre-Crisis while throwing out others, and even trying to claim that previous stories happened but with half of the characters in them missing from them, like how they took Superman and company out of the JLA.

You could explain the Multiverse and how it worked in a single panel. For the current Superman, as much as I enjoy the books, it takes an essay to explain who he is and how he got where he is.

DC continuity hasn't worked for or made any sense to me since Pre-Crisis. New 52 made all the same mistakes that Post-Crisis did, and amazingly enough, did an even worse job. If you're gonna reboot, reboot 100% like they did with James Bond. Start at the beginning.

You made some really good points here, but... although far from perfect, I think that COIE had an unparalleled influence and a profound impact on the DCU.

Wally West received enough leeway to grow organically, assuming his mentor's role on a development that took almost three decades. I don't think we will see this kind of thing happening again.

Perhaps, more importantly, I think that many good stories have came from the aftermath of COIE. George Perez's Wonder Woman, Miller's Batman, Byrne's Superman, Tim Truman's Hawkworld... the list goes on. We can't seriously compare COIE with turds like Infinite Crisis, Blackest Night, Flashpoint, the New 52 and Rebirth.
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Spektre

FROGMAN

Postby Spektre » Sun Dec 25, 2016 10:58 pm

Kurosawa wrote:Never before COIE was it an accepted idea to just throw away old stories. So anything you read "counted" one way or another.


And this is the delirium that existed prior to COIE. Even if two stories DIRECTLY CONTRADICTED each other, "they still counted". This of course can't be true. The whole A is not (not A) and so forth. This is why COIE, far from being destructive, CREATED a continuity out of the chaos.
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Spektre

FROGMAN

Postby Spektre » Sun Dec 25, 2016 10:59 pm

Spacedog wrote:You made some really good points here, but... although far from perfect, I think that COIE had an unparalleled influence and a profound impact on the DCU.

Wally West received enough leeway to grow organically, assuming his mentor's role on a development that took almost three decades. I don't think we will see this kind of thing happening again.

Perhaps, more importantly, I think that many good stories have came from the aftermath of COIE. George Perez's Wonder Woman, Miller's Batman, Byrne's Superman, Tim Truman's Hawkworld... the list goes on. We can't seriously compare COIE with turds like Infinite Crisis, Blackest Night, Flashpoint, the New 52 and Rebirth.


It truly was, the beginning of the DCU.
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Kurosawa

Motherfucker from Hell

Postby Kurosawa » Sun Dec 25, 2016 11:26 pm

Spacedog wrote:You made some really good points here, but... although far from perfect, I think that COIE had an unparalleled influence and a profound impact on the DCU.

Wally West received enough leeway to grow organically, assuming his mentor's role on a development that took almost three decades. I don't think we will see this kind of thing happening again.

Perhaps, more importantly, I think that many good stories have came from the aftermath of COIE. George Perez's Wonder Woman, Miller's Batman, Byrne's Superman, Tim Truman's Hawkworld... the list goes on. We can't seriously compare COIE with turds like Infinite Crisis, Blackest Night, Flashpoint, the New 52 and Rebirth.


Wally could have been the new Flash without COIE. Barry had just been through several years of pure hell and a murder trial, and in the end he retired and moved to the 30th Century for a much deserved happily ever after with Iris, one the death-worshipping Marv Wolfman took from him with COIE. Barry retires, comes back to the present, gifts the Flash uniform and title to Wally, then goes back to the 30th Century to be an occasional supporting character in Legion of Super-Heroes as the father of Don and Dawn Allen. That's what I would have wanted to see.

As for the other series, I hated all of them except for Perez' Wonder Woman. But regardless, if they had completely rebooted, they could have done those stories. But you cannot retcon Byrne's Superman into old stories, because he would have died in five seconds on Earth-One fighting the Earth-One Superman and JLA's enemies. Amazo, for example, could knock around the Earth-One Superman who could move planets. One punch from him should disintegrate Byrne's Superman who couldn't even go into space without an oxygen mask.
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Kurosawa

Motherfucker from Hell

Postby Kurosawa » Sun Dec 25, 2016 11:40 pm

Spektre wrote:
And this is the delirium that existed prior to COIE. Even if two stories DIRECTLY CONTRADICTED each other, "they still counted". This of course can't be true. The whole A is not (not A) and so forth. This is why COIE, far from being destructive, CREATED a continuity out of the chaos.


They created more chaos and more continuity snarls after COIE than there ever was before. Infinitely more. They ruined character after character and major series after major series. They tried over and over to throw away and kill off the JSA, they ruined the Hawks, they made Power Girl into a complete mess, they made Donna Troy's history a mess, and they destroyed the Legion. Meanwhile, Pre-Crisis ruined....nobody. No characters were ever made toxic by the Pre-Crisis Multiverse system and in fact it gave old characters new life quite a bit of the time. Jay Garrick fans never hated Barry Allen because they didn't see Jay get killed multiple times in a series so Barry could be the new Flash. Alan Scott was not written 100% out of character and turned into a villain so Hal Jordan could become Green Lantern. Kal-L's history and legacy as the first and greatest superhero of all time was not thrown away in order for Kal-El to exist. Pre-Crisis was a system of construction. Post-Crisis was a system of death, brutality and deconstruction.

Just like they came up with the convoluted idea that it was the Golden Age Carter and Shiera Hall that were the Hawks in the JLA on the Post-Crisis Clutterearth, they could-and did-come up with any number of explanations for when stories contradicted each other in Pre-Crisis times. And there has never been a superhero comics company that did not have stories that contradicted one another. It even happened at Marvel in the 60's, and that was with one editor (Stan Lee) on the entire line and two people (Stan and Roy Thomas) doing most of the scripts, so even if an artist contradicted another artist, one of those two people should have caught it, especially Roy, who is a continuity freak.

The only way not to have the occasional continuity mistake would be for comics to be written and drawn by computers. And that would have no soul.
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Spektre

FROGMAN

Postby Spektre » Sun Dec 25, 2016 11:53 pm

Kurosawa wrote:
They created more chaos and more continuity snarls after COIE than there ever was before. Infinitely more. They ruined character after character and major series after major series. They tried over and over to throw away and kill off the JSA, they ruined the Hawks, they made Power Girl into a complete mess, they made Donna Troy's history a mess, and they destroyed the Legion. Meanwhile, Pre-Crisis ruined....nobody. No characters were ever made toxic by the Pre-Crisis Multiverse system and in fact it gave old characters new life quite a bit of the time.

The only way not to have the occasional continuity mistake would be for comics to be written and drawn by computers. And that would have no soul.


Nonsense. You had thousands of variants of every character type pre-Crisis. What was Superman's history? Who knows, it changes week to week.

As long as our fans believe that all the contradictions "count" then we're Golden. Except, they had this problem where most of their readers actually wanted their stories to make sense, and didn't have the ruby colored glasses. Thus the masterpiece of COIE was born.

One credo, now where stories "counted". There was simply no way to have a consistent universe based on the pre-COIE stories. Something had to give. Either something "didn't count" or it "didn't count".
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HNutz

Rain Partier

Postby HNutz » Mon Dec 26, 2016 1:07 pm

Kurosawa wrote:
If you're gonna reboot, reboot 100% like they did with James Bond. Start at the beginning.


Even the Bond reboot didn't get rid of everything.

They kept Dame Judi Dench as M.
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Kurosawa

Motherfucker from Hell

Postby Kurosawa » Mon Dec 26, 2016 6:18 pm

Spektre wrote:Nonsense. You had thousands of variants of every character type pre-Crisis. What was Superman's history? Who knows, it changes week to week.


Prove it. Superman had two origins from 1938 to 1985. The first was from 1948, the second was from 1961. All retellings after 1961 just retold those same elements. Post-Crisis, he had 5 very different origins from 1986 until Flashpoint: 1986, 2001, 2003, 2005, and 2009.

As long as our fans believe that all the contradictions "count" then we're Golden. Except, they had this problem where most of their readers actually wanted their stories to make sense, and didn't have the ruby colored glasses. Thus the masterpiece of COIE was born.


Make sense, like Byrne's Superman somehow remembering events from Crisis that he never experienced? Like the Silver Age Hawkman appearing for years Post-Crisis, then having his entire history changed, three years later? And then, suddenly, all the stories with the Silver Age Hawks magically had the Golden Age Hawks-who were supposed to be in a dimension fighting Ragnarok over and over-in their place? Or how Power Girl remembers Kal-L, and then doesn't? Or how she has a baby, then it's forgotten that it ever happened? DC couldn't keep their stories straight from one week to another Post-Crisis, and unlike anything in Pre-Crisis, the inconsistencies killed characters and killed series. The Legion will never recover from losing their connections to Superman since the idiots at DC decided to throw away Superboy-a concept that would have been brought into the strip in 1938 if Jerry Siegel had gotten his way.

One credo, now where stories "counted". There was simply no way to have a consistent universe based on the pre-COIE stories. Something had to give. Either something "didn't count" or it "didn't count".


The facts say otherwise. Like I have proved over and over, Post-Crisis had just as many issues as Pre-Crisis did, plus the mistakes made ruined characters and series. The closest any shared comics universe has had to being 100% consistent was Marvel in the 60;s, because one editor (Stan Lee) was in charge of it all. And even they had the occasional mistake-that's why the "no-prize" was created.

You cannot unsee what you have seen. It's just like Han shooting first. I saw the movie. Han shot first. I read JLA #1. Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman were in that story. They were on the pages. I read the book.
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Kurosawa

Motherfucker from Hell

Postby Kurosawa » Mon Dec 26, 2016 6:27 pm

HNutz wrote:
Even the Bond reboot didn't get rid of everything.

They kept Dame Judi Dench as M.


Same actress, different version of M. The M she played in the Brosnan movies was a new M, who was replacing the previous M who was played by Robert Brown. In the Craig movies, she is the M who is in command of MI6 when Bond became a double-O.

The Bond movies only had vague continuity anyway, the biggest mistake being made in one of the very best Bond movies, On Her Majesties Secret Service, where Blofeld does not recognize Bond despite facing him in the previous movie, You Only Live Twice.
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IvCNuB4

Staff Writer

Postby IvCNuB4 » Mon Dec 26, 2016 7:52 pm

TNT is playing "Man Of Steel" in 8 minutes. Pop that popcorn and grab a beverage.

Image
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Popeye McFly

dINGO

Postby Popeye McFly » Mon Dec 26, 2016 9:49 pm

IvCNuB4 wrote:TNT is playing "Man Of Steel" in 8 minutes. Pop that popcorn and grab a beverage.

Image


I got better shit to do.

Like self-mutilation.
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Kurosawa

Motherfucker from Hell

Postby Kurosawa » Mon Dec 26, 2016 10:38 pm

Popeye McFly wrote:
I got better shit to do.

Like self-mutilation.


Yeah, I was hooking up a bunch of my old game systems, then I played some Mario Kart 64.
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Spektre

FROGMAN

Postby Spektre » Tue Dec 27, 2016 12:24 am

Kurosawa wrote:
Prove it. Superman had two origins from 1938 to 1985. The first was from 1948, the second was from 1961. All retellings after 1961 just retold those same elements. Post-Crisis, he had 5 very different origins from 1986 until Flashpoint: 1986, 2001, 2003, 2005, and 2009.


Why prove it again, when I have done so well with it in the past?

The point is, THOSE stories did not occur. All those things you read did not happen to any Superman character in existence as of COIE. Your Earth-2 Superman might as well be Snyderman. He had no history.

Not that he HAD anything resembling a history before that. Ideas came, ideas went. The "character" fit whatever the plot of the day was. Face it Kuro, your "continuity" was a sham. COIE was necessary. I like making everything fit as well. The problem occurs when you have a clear contradiction. You appear to accept someone telling you black is white so long as they are one of your revered creators. Most of the rest of us prefer logic to worship.

As for this site's "categorization", it appears to have been a lot of work, but quite inadequate. Even the COIE guides admit to there being dozens (hundreds?) of Earths required to make sense of the pre-COIE state.

So while Superman had no continuity pre-COIE, he had good company.



Yet you've (Kurosawa) come right out and said we lost DECADES of Superman because the Supes we read about didn't take place on Earth 1, didn't take place on Earth-2, but instead took place on Earth-2A. So let's follow that reasoning. We invent Earth-2 in the first place to explain the differences in the characters between their Golden and Silver Age stories, something already problematic since the Big 3 never stopped publication. Great so now we have a clean break and have established a continuity right? Wrong? It's clear Superman, doesn't even fit into this so we have to make up a new Earth for him, Earth-2A. Now we have a clean break and continuity, right? Wrong. This Superman is clearly seen interacting with Batman and Robin every month in World's Finest. He interacts with the other Golden Age heroes and villains in his title. So, the whole idea of "where in Batman's history did the Earth-2 Batman stories end and the Earth-1 Batman stories begin?" is meaningless.

Basically, pre-COIE invented Earth-2 for no purpose as it doesn't address the mess it was supposed to. We are told decades of Superman stories don't belong to the Superman we have been reading, nor do they belong to the new Superman we just made up but a different Superman. Destroying a story? Try destroying DECADES of stories.

But that's not even the worst part. The history of this "Superman of Earth-2A" isn't even consistent within itself. Often the continuity of the character changed month to month as did most of DC's characters at the time. I'll give you that it is difficult to spot continuity errors pre-COIE because THERE WAS SO LITTLE UNDERLYING CONSISTENCY TO POINT TO. Old stories would occasionally get referenced, but that isn't a sufficient condition for continuity let alone even a necessary one.


Supes interacted frequently with Wonder Woman, so any divergence in WW's history also splits the Man of Steel into various different characters.


As most comic fans know, Earth-2 is the place where the Golden Age super heroes are assigned. Those heroes, about whom Earth-Real people (that's us) read during WWII, battled Nazies on a world parallel to ours and the one which saw the start of the Justice League of America.

Time flows more slowly on Earth-2; thus, the heroes of WWII there are still able to fight crime today (although most are retiring) as members of the Justice Society. For example, Black Canary started her career on Earth-2 during the war, when she was around eighteen. With a normal flow of time, she should be somewhere in her early fifties, Earth-Real time, and middle forties, Earth-1 time. Yet though she's switched Earths, she still does not seem to be more than in her late thirties, and probably a lot less: seemingly an amazingly long youth to her fellow JLA-ers. But to her old JSA buddies, who see her every year or so, the Black Canary is aging very quickly.

It is on Earth-2 then that much early DC comic book history is placed. The modern, Earth-1 Batman has little in common with his earlier self, so the assumption is that our Batman has an Earth-2 double who has shared some of the same adventures as our Bats, but who has also had adventures that B-1 has not had.

With this in mind, most comic fans assigned the early Moulton/Peter Wonder Woman to Earth-2. Indeed, in Justice League #135, Wonder Woman-2 battled Queen Clea of Atlantis, the same character that the Golden Age WW battled in Comic Cavalcade #18, Sensation #36 and Wonder Woman #8 and 28.

But today's Earth-2 Wonder Woman is... different.

The early Wonder Woman's boyfriend, Steve Trevor, had blond hair; now he is shown as a brownette. Etta Candy was a wrestler who eventually went to a controversial college; Etta-2II is General Blankenship's secretary. Hippolyte of the Golden Age was a brunette; Hippy-2II is a blonde. WW used to change clothes normally (if a little fast); WW-2II does a pirouette and -- instant costume! Diana Prince started her career as a lieutenant; Diana-2II is a yeoman. In other words, the entire Earth2II situation closely follows that of last season's Wonder Woman TV series, which isn't an entirely bad thing, except for one item:

What excuse is DC giving us for messing up their continuity? DC would have us accept this strange Wonder Woman as the real, Earth-2II McCoy. If we do, then the ORIGINAL Moulton/Peter Wonder Woman MUST NOT have been on Earth-2! The only explanation I can think of, Bridwell help me, is that she was from yet ANOTHER Earth. Would you believe an Earth-2a?


http://www.carolastrickland.com/comics/ ... w/4ww.html

and he certainly interacted with Supergirl, so she must be consistent, since Supes had this continuity you speak of pre-COIE...

Supergirl started out with a secret identity of modest little Linda Lee, orphan (sorely neglected by her sole surviving family member, shame on him), who eventually got adopted by the Danverses, went to college, discovered that her blood parents were still alive, joined the Legion of Super-Heroes, graduated and moved to San Francisco in the TV business, moved to Florida as a teacher, became a soap opera actress, went back to college suddenly years younger...


Neither Earth-1 nor Earth-2A had a consistent history and who knows about Earth-2. According to your theory it had no history at all. The Earth-2 characters weren't the characters we knew from the Golden Age, they were just a chance for the artists to try out coloring gray hair.


And another favorite...

I remember my first comic with Superman was Justice League #73 (1969). I got introduced to "E-1" and "E-2 Superman" duking it out. (Perhaps they were fighting over their ever changing newspaper jobs?)

I also distinctly remember a letter that seemed almost of apology for the price increase to 15 cents from 12.

This story also features Black Canary's husband dying and her moving to Earth-1.

A source of another glaring continuity error. It is later revealed that the Black Canary that came to Earth-1 was actually Black Canary's daughter, with whom the Thunderbolt has presto-switcho switched minds. Thus we are left to believe that:

0. The "child" dies so that the mother may basically inhabit her body.
1. The Earth-1 characters who had teamed up with BC on multiple occasions could not tell mother from daughter.
2. During all the subsequent team ups, none of her own multi-decade partners could tell the difference.
3. A smaller continuity error during the discussion where BC claims she gained her sonic powers when she "reached Earth-2" (though I guess when you are finding out you are not who you thought you were, some allowances can be made)
4. Although, to me, it seems it is the mother who is now on Earth-1, as it is her memories, it is treated as if it is the child and thus...
5. It somehow made sense to transfer her mother's memories to her instead of letting her be her own person. Memories that incidentally would have included an entire married life...to her father.

Yeah. Think about that for a bit.

Some of the stories are absolutely creepy as she spends time pining away for her dead lover...her dad.

The post-Crisis situation of the JSA BC being a mother and the JLA BC being her daughter is much more palatable than this mess.


Superman had hundreds of incarnations through the era you cite.

Action Comics #1 contains a character who has worked for the Daily Star.

Action Comics #2, contains a character who has worked for the Cleveland Evening News.

They are both "called" Superman, but must be different people.


I think you have that backward. Pre-Crisis, whole swathes of stories needed to be ignored, changed, something, just to make a coherent picture. The only continuity that existed for this era was head canon.

I have certainly heard the "fans are too stupid" conceit cited but I also remember reading stories I can't put my thumb on right now that the reason for getting rid of the multiverse was not fans...but studios.

As I recall, DC was supposedly shopping its IP out to studios at the time and this was the impetus for the "Who's Who" series of books. It would make for a quick encyclopedia of the company's IP for prospective clients. During the planning of this, it occurred to them that a great deal of their "history" simply did not make sense or was deemed too confusing to make quick pitches to studio executives, and so...Crisis.

I imagine it would make for a rather awkward meeting to state "We streamlined our company because we thought you were too stupid to understand it." and thus the fans got blamed.


So yes...

I have addressed the Kuro, just not with the creator worship you desire.

Most of the plot-holes in the post-Crisis universe were dealt with using unrevealed information.

Although I can understand why you perceive the problems post-Crisis to be worse. There were at that point ACTUAL characters to deviate from as opposed to the "spin your character of the month" you were familiar with.


Only two origins. That would be cute if it weren't so wrong...

Plain and simple, your Supes' creator, couldn't get his story straight,. He couldn't figure out where the guy worked, the color of his boots, the names of supporting characters, HIS name...and that was just by issue 3. We'll leave out when he got his powers, what his parent's names are (thank goodness they settled on Martha or I suppose Batman would have just had to off him), how his parent's died (natural causes or tropical disease?), when his parent's died (lived to see Superman, or died when still Superboy?), whether he could fly, Was he married to Lois in 1950 or not? Did he hover as a child, or only leap until adulthood? And as for that, when exactly was he a child and when was he an adult? The times sure seem to overlap. With that face-moldy power, perhaps he was also Clayface II?

Speaking of those powers, how does he come by them again? Is it that all Kryptonians have these powers naturally due to their genetic makeup? Is it the lighter gravity? Atmospheric differences? The sun?

And how did he use those powers he got somehow? Did he wake up everyday and kill someone because it was a day of the week that ended in "y" or did he have a strict no-killing policy that he had ALWAYS had?

And we're only scratching the surface of ONE character.

Even if you BUY the continuity breaking parallel universes shtick, here is a guy who has done yeoman's work TRYING to make sense of it. Trying to find WHERE the breaks between each character's E1 and E2 history occurs and still make sense...and he can't.

In his own words...


When discussing the pre-Crisis DC Universe, one hotly debated topic is where to draw the line between the Earth-1 and Earth-2 adventures of the 5 heroes that continued publication in the 1950s. Some argue that since there is no mention of different character versions, the adventures don't apply to either Earth. Some argue that most of the 1950s adventures happened on both Earths. Others draw a line in the sand and say everything before a certain point is Earth-2. Everything after that point is Earth-1. Most of the time Showcase #4 (the debut of Flash) or Detective Comics #225 (the debut of J'onn J'onzz) is the dividing line.

In this debate there is no right answer. Every explanation has it's ups and downs


To try to piece together coherency pre-Crisis, even ignoring many of the issues I and this gentleman have cited (along with literally hundreds more), one is forced to concoct a multitude of Earths. Earth-A, Earth-2B, Earth-pi, Earth-whateverthehellweneedtohavethismakesomesense, etc.


http://www.dcindexes.com/index.php?page=fanboy

Throw in a healthy dose of mopee (not throw out any story indeed!) and It is difficult to point to continuity errors pre-Crisis, because there was no underlying continuity to deviate from. Stuff was played with so lose and free you got a "spin your own character" month to month. It wasn't so much that your disregarded "A" story, you simply went to the smorgasbord of character fragments and pieced together whatever head canon your felt like.


Kurosawa wrote:You cannot unsee what you have seen. It's just like Han shooting first. I saw the movie. Han shot first. I read JLA #1. Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman were in that story. They were on the pages. I read the book.


Yet you've said the CREATOR has the final say, and Lucas is pretty clear that Han did not shoot first. Have you finally come around to believing your own eyes over what the creator told you?

Once again...in picture form (and YOU had INIFINTE Earths to make it all make sense in, unlike post COIE)
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Kurosawa

Motherfucker from Hell

Postby Kurosawa » Tue Dec 27, 2016 12:45 am

Well, I'm not quoting your post because it is absurd, but I will just say again that making a character a different character because of an editor's mistake or a colorists error is beyond absurd, but you are not a person who understands art on an artists level, you look at this stuff like a computer because you are soulless. There's no way to get any of this through to you, although I do notice you do not deny that the Post-Crisis changes ruined a ton of series, nor do you refute any of my points. Because all comics have continuity screw ups. Post-Crisis DC is not the relatively straight line that you present, it is no better and no worse than what came before, except it rebooted over and over every 9 years or so, starting in 1994, then again in 2003, then again in 2006, then again in 2011. If you want comics in a shared universe with a pretty tight continuity, the only example that has ever existed and ever will exist is 60's Marvel with Stan Lee as editor. That is it. That crap DC did with the Hawks and the Legion would have never gotten past Stan, because he would never destroy series like that. But Stan is a winner.

As for my Han shot first example, it just is a reminder of what a hypocrite you are. You declared before that Han shot first because that is what is in the movie, yet you are perfectly okay with DC retconning all of those JLA stories and saying that Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman were not in them. And it wasn't Gardner Fox (who I am sure you hate and disrespect just like you hate and disrespect Jerry Siegel), but it was later writers and editors retconning his stories.

Basically, I feel you do not get art because you are not human, and you do not and cannot respect artists, probably because you have no imagination, heart or artistic understanding yourself.
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Spektre

FROGMAN

Postby Spektre » Tue Dec 27, 2016 2:05 am

Kurosawa wrote:Well, I'm not quoting your post because it is absurd, but I will just say again that making a character a different character because of an editor's mistake or a colorists error is beyond absurd, but you are not a person who understands art on an artists level, you look at this stuff like a computer because you are soulless. There's no way to get any of this through to you, although I do notice you do not deny that the Post-Crisis changes ruined a ton of series, nor do you refute any of my points. Because all comics have continuity screw ups. Post-Crisis DC is not the relatively straight line that you present, it is no better and no worse than what came before, except it rebooted over and over every 9 years or so, starting in 1994, then again in 2003, then again in 2006, then again in 2011. If you want comics in a shared universe with a pretty tight continuity, the only example that has ever existed and ever will exist is 60's Marvel with Stan Lee as editor. That is it. That crap DC did with the Hawks and the Legion would have never gotten past Stan, because he would never destroy series like that. But Stan is a winner.

As for my Han shot first example, it just is a reminder of what a hypocrite you are. You declared before that Han shot first because that is what is in the movie, yet you are perfectly okay with DC retconning all of those JLA stories and saying that Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman were not in them. And it wasn't Gardner Fox (who I am sure you hate and disrespect just like you hate and disrespect Jerry Siegel), but it was later writers and editors retconning his stories.

Basically, I feel you do not get art because you are not human, and you do not and cannot respect artists, probably because you have no imagination, heart or artistic understanding yourself.


'Cuz art makes logic vanish...(eyes rolling)

Kuro, you move the goalposts so much it's impossible for you to be right, because to be so, would mean you are also wrong.

Post-Crisis DC is great. One consistent universe, with "problems" mostly resolved through revealed information. No need for dozens of universe to make everything fit...and even then not doing so.

We all have nostalgia for earlier times. That you notice that I can objectively look at eras in DC's history, while you cannot, will continue to be considered a compliment.

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