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Paula Deen Out at Food Network

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Re: Paula Deen Out at Food Network

Postby Keb » Wed Jun 26, 2013 8:36 am

Thunderstorm wrote:The Hate Crime data is very skewed against us. I don't think it's intentional, but it's not accurate. Doesn't mean it doesn't happen, please understand that. Even Texas' Most Wanted list shows pictures of obvious Hispanics and lists their race right under it as 'white'. That makes a significant portion of the Most Wanted list 'white' when it isn't the case at all.

One thing about Hispanic or Latino people is that they are considered a culture and racially are made up of a cluster of different races, including white, black, mixed race and other races. In addition, the Hispanic population, while growing, only represents like 17% of the population. 72-17=55. That's still a white majority in the US. And while they are more prone to violent crimes due to socioeconomic standing, I don't think you can lay the entire blame on them. My understanding of white would be of European origin, and from the etymology of "Hispanic" I would think that some sort of origin in Europe might be involved there.

Just from that same 2009 source cited earlier
In 2009, law enforcement reported 1,050 offenses were committed based on the perceived ethnicity or national origin of the victim. Of these offenses:

62.3 percent were motivated by anti-Hispanic bias.
37.7 percent resulted from anti-other ethnicity/national origin bias. (Based on Table 1.)


This isn't just people being murdered here. There's more to crime than killing. The stats are for all crimes, which includes intimidation and vandalism. It's not really about people killing people, it's about people acting like dicks towards other people too.

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Re: Paula Deen Out at Food Network

Postby achilles » Wed Jun 26, 2013 8:46 am

Keb wrote:One thing about Hispanic or Latino people is that they are considered a culture and racially are made up of a cluster of different races, including white, black, mixed race and other races. In addition, the Hispanic population, while growing, only represents like 17% of the population. 72-17=55. That's still a white majority in the US. And while they are more prone to violent crimes due to socioeconomic standing, I don't think you can lay the entire blame on them. My understanding of white would be of European origin, and from the etymology of "Hispanic" I would think that some sort of origin in Europe might be involved there.

Just from that same 2009 source cited earlier


This isn't just people being murdered here. There's more to crime than killing. The stats are for all crimes, which includes intimidation and vandalism. It's not really about people killing people, it's about people acting like dicks towards other people too.


Dicks toward one another? Dude, that's most of the planet. And just the last page you were saying it WAS about people killing people, back when you thought it was whites killing blacks in droves, rather than blacks killing blacks.

And again, the "stats" are really rather bogus---as T-Storm pointed out on the previous page, when the guy in charge of the Justice Department admits they're not applied to crimes against whites. At least in the US. I can't say about other countries.
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Re: Paula Deen Out at Food Network

Postby Keb » Wed Jun 26, 2013 8:59 am

achilles wrote:Is it? Many prominent blacks think that that is simply an excuse for poverty and poor academic and economic performance. Slavery, which ended just a bit ago, was by and large perpetrated in Africa by black Africans---that is to say they enslaved their fellows, and sold them to Arab slave traders, at which point they were then resold to white Europeans. However, the culpability of the first two legs of that evil journey rarely are mentioned in arguments like this.

More to the point, how long do people draft on slavery? Sure there was and is discrimination after. But when do you stop playing the victim card, and start trying to pull yourself up regardless? When does that become an excuse for not trying?

Wouldn't a better response be to simply refuse to be ground down by discrimination and knuckle down to better yourself? Many blacks have done just that and accomplished a great deal.

Just as many Jews who arguably have faced as bad or worse discrimination have, refusing to play the victim card. To say nothing of the Chinese for that matter, who were quite badly discriminated against in the US, and still are via certain policies in various areas of public life.

The point about Jews bears some repeating, since one can argue that genocide might be considered slightly worse than slavery, and discrimination against Jews has probably been just about the worst that any ethnic group has suffered world-wide over the centuries. Yet they neither have affirmative action, nor ask for it. And while they are routinely subject to racial slurs, (many by blacks I might add, who seem to bear them special hatred for some reason), that doesn't seem to get the same play as slurs by whites against blacks. Look at the treatment of Jesse Jackson after his infamous slur against Jews. Essentially nothing happened to him, and he suffered comparatively little condemnation.

The overall Jewish attitude toward all of that seems to be simply to ignore it as best they can and work to overcome those attitudes.

You're joking, right? It's not just slavery. It's decades of treatment as second class and less than that are what's creating the issue here. It's not like Lincoln freed the slaves and they all became powerful CEOs and went to college. The point Jude is making is that black people have had to prove themselves over and over and over (and still are to this day in this very fucking thread). The issue is that when a black person tries to pull him or herself up, he or she has to try about 20 times harder because of all the factors that have been working against black people for years. Yet they still do. I mean, would a (half-)black guy be the President of the United States if they weren't trying?

Also, your point about Jewish people doesn't really make sense as Jews in North America have never been (to my knowledge) killed in mass numbers nor have they ever been enslaved in mass numbers, nor am I aware of any history of nation-wide laws that forbid them from basic civil rights.

Yes, Jews have faced persecution for years but isolated in North America, their story is much different from blacks. Yes, they've been victimized by racism as well, but a Jewish person can hide the fact that he's Jewish. A black person can't hide the fact that he's black.

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Re: Paula Deen Out at Food Network

Postby Keb » Wed Jun 26, 2013 9:13 am

achilles wrote:
Dicks toward one another? Dude, that's most of the planet. And just the last page you were saying it WAS about people killing people, back when you thought it was whites killing blacks in droves, rather than blacks killing blacks.

And again, the "stats" are really rather bogus---as T-Storm pointed out on the previous page, when the guy in charge of the Justice Department admits they're not applied to crimes against whites. At least in the US. I can't say about other countries.

We discussed the killing thing earlier and I've made mention of it and other violent crimes in other posts. I'm not going to continue to reiterate my point.

I don't see where the dude admits they don't apply to white people.

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Re: Paula Deen Out at Food Network

Postby achilles » Wed Jun 26, 2013 3:03 pm

Keb wrote:You're joking, right? It's not just slavery. It's decades of treatment as second class and less than that are what's creating the issue here. It's not like Lincoln freed the slaves and they all became powerful CEOs and went to college. The point Jude is making is that black people have had to prove themselves over and over and over (and still are to this day in this very fucking thread). The issue is that when a black person tries to pull him or herself up, he or she has to try about 20 times harder because of all the factors that have been working against black people for years. Yet they still do. I mean, would a (half-)black guy be the President of the United States if they weren't trying?

Also, your point about Jewish people doesn't really make sense as Jews in North America have never been (to my knowledge) killed in mass numbers nor have they ever been enslaved in mass numbers, nor am I aware of any history of nation-wide laws that forbid them from basic civil rights.

Yes, Jews have faced persecution for years but isolated in North America, their story is much different from blacks. Yes, they've been victimized by racism as well, but a Jewish person can hide the fact that he's Jewish. A black person can't hide the fact that he's black.


Er, well, if you say so about the black persons having to work "twenty times harder", what with affirmative action running through all levels of society to ensure that they don't have to. No, they didn't become "all powerful CEOs." Which seems to be the complaint, that it didn't suddenly happen. You've got an attitude in some circles like that woman who was talking about how Obama would pay her gas and her mortgage from his "stash", whatever that was, (taxpayer money I suppose), while she does nothing to earn it.

There are those who work their butts off to get ahead and make no excuses---valid or not, and then there are those who don't want to do the work, and wail all day long about slavery and discrimination as an excuse to why they're not succeeding. Then there are some who try but fail, and fall back on those excuses.

Whites do it too. Though of course they use different excuses. I just don't think it's all that helpful in the long run in any case to act like that.

As for Jews, well, they're the last group remaining that it's still socially acceptable in many circles to discriminate against---yeah, here in North America too.
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Re: Paula Deen Out at Food Network

Postby S.F. Jude Terror » Wed Jun 26, 2013 3:09 pm

achilles wrote:
Er, well, if you say so about the black persons having to work "twenty times harder", what with affirmative action running through all levels of society to ensure that they don't have to. No, they didn't become "all powerful CEOs." Which seems to be the complaint, that it didn't suddenly happen. You've got an attitude in some circles like that woman who was talking about how Obama would pay her gas and her mortgage from his "stash", whatever that was, (taxpayer money I suppose), while she does nothing to earn it.

There are those who work their butts off to get ahead and make no excuses---valid or not, and then there are those who don't want to do the work, and wail all day long about slavery and discrimination as an excuse to why they're not succeeding. Then there are some who try but fail, and fall back on those excuses.

Whites do it too. Though of course they use different excuses. I just don't think it's all that helpful in the long run in any case to act like that.

As for Jews, well, they're the last group remaining that it's still socially acceptable in many circles to discriminate against---yeah, here in North America too.


And then there are all the cases where black people really are discriminated against, every day, for the color of their skin. Here's 375,000 examples: https://twitter.com/stopandfrisk (though the individual race of each person is not revealed here, statistics show it is 55% black people and 30% Latino. Of course, that leaves the 15% remainder of white people (or Asians and Pacific Islanders), who are I'm sure the real vicitms. :roll:
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Re: Paula Deen Out at Food Network

Postby achilles » Wed Jun 26, 2013 3:17 pm

Keb wrote:We discussed the killing thing earlier and I've made mention of it and other violent crimes in other posts. I'm not going to continue to reiterate my point.

I don't see where the dude admits they don't apply to white people.


You mean Holder? I didn't watch T-Storm's video embed, but it was probably there. Regardless, Holder did admit that some years ago. I think it was a year and change after he decided to not prosecute those Black Panthers for voter intimidation of some middle aged white voters. Excuse me, I mean not do anything about it after Justice won that case.

It was something like those hate crime laws only applied to crimes against minorities.

Specifically:

In light of the brutality of the crimes committed that night, the sentences handed down were extremely lenient. The man who threw the brick at Kaufmann's car and instigated the attack, 17-year-old Deonte J. Williams, was sentenced to only 19 months in prison.

In a radio interview shortly after the attack, Macomb County Sheriff Mark Hackel was asked why hate crime charges were not sought, which would have resulted in stiffer penalties. Hackel responded that he didn't consider hate crime laws to be applicable since Kaufmann is white, and therefore not a member of a "protected class." Hackel said, "I don’t know if it [hate-crime legislation] applies to an unprotected class, and I don’t know if whites are part of that. I’m not sure.”

In hearings before the Senate Judiciary Committee yesterday, Attorney General Eric Holder settled Hackel's question of whether hate crime laws protect whites: they don't.

Holder repeatedly claimed that hate crime laws are designed to protect only groups that were targeted for violence on a "historic basis," such as African-Americans, Hispanics, Jews, and gays. (Holder's testimony can be viewed in its entirety by clicking the 'webcast' link here. He lists the groups he considers to be protected between 73:30 and 74 minutes).

Holder's repeated charge that blacks were "historically" targeted for violence betrays the fact that in modern times they rarely are. In fact, according to the Justice Department's own statistics, in only 10% of the 650,000 violent interracial crimes that occur each year in this country are white offenders attacking black victims.


This was after a number of incidents where groups of black kids ran amok attacking any whites they could find in Michigan, Chicago, Baltimore, and elsewhere.

But on the other hand, when overall cross-racial violent crimes are tabulated—including incidents not formally classified as racially motivated hate crimes—Justice Department statistics show that blacks attack whites far more often than whites attack blacks.

In 2005, there were more than 645,000 victims of cross-racial violent crimes between blacks and whites in the U.S. In 90 percent of those crimes, black offenders attacked white victims.

"In the old days," said Hutchinson, contemplating that statistic, "when you said 'hate crimes,' it was automatic—whites victimizing blacks. Today you have to pause for a minute and not make automatic assumptions."
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Re: Paula Deen Out at Food Network

Postby achilles » Wed Jun 26, 2013 3:23 pm

S.F. Jude Terror wrote:
And then there are all the cases where black people really are discriminated against, every day, for the color of their skin. Here's 375,000 examples: https://twitter.com/stopandfrisk (though the individual race of each person is not revealed here, statistics show it is 55% black people and 30% Latino. Of course, that leaves the 15% remainder of white people (or Asians and Pacific Islanders), who are I'm sure the real vicitms. :roll:


You mean like that guy Kaufman in the above post? The one attacked by the mob of black kids for being white? The one with the permanent brain damage? Or that white couple tortured to death for being white? Or the three whites murdered by two black brothers, (of the sibling variety), for being white?

Yeah, I suppose it's just possible they might consider themselves "real" victims. You know, the ones still alive enough to do so. And the other guy might too, if he still had a working brain not bashed in by a brick. :roll:

Or the white kids who lost their places in college because of the color of their skin? :roll:

Yeah Jude, cherry pick all you want, but it goes both ways.
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Re: Paula Deen Out at Food Network

Postby The Old Doctor » Wed Jun 26, 2013 3:27 pm

Keb wrote:http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1449156/ States that blacks are six times more likely to be killed in homocide crime than whites. Also examines the social, economic and cultural links between race and violence.

Hate crime statistics (2009) in the US from the Feebees http://www2.fbi.gov/ucr/hc2009/incidents.html


And more from the Feebees in 2010 http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/ha ... -offenders


That's in the US, which is what Thunderstorm and I are focusing on in our discussion.

You could always go outside and talk to people. I've never met a black person over the age of 25 who hasn't been discriminated against in his or her lifetime. I've met plenty of white people who after sharing my personal experiences with have admitted that they have never experienced racial discrimination.


Since you're citing personal anecdotes, I've found the opposite here. I've both directly and indirectly encountered more discrimination then blacks and have found that also with violence. I've been attacked far more by blacks then whites or most any other group. Mostly during the last 20 years to note. I also hear from the majority of whites that, no, they do face racial discrimination and more so as time progresses. I also hear this from other groups as well such as South East Asians.

So your raw numbers are interesting. I can see that in the US the numbers will be different, but really, I wonder about the veracity of any statistics given that both of you are citing that most numbers are "swept under the rug" in regards to your argument. Also, you both are intermingling anecdotes from your own lives and others you know/are related to in more then just North America. It seems to be that the arguments, both, fall apart as it sets that both are just as founded or unfounded.

In the end, I think while both of you are being civil, you're both engaging in a "pissing contest" here.
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Re: Paula Deen Out at Food Network

Postby S.F. Jude Terror » Wed Jun 26, 2013 3:28 pm

:? I can't believe this argument has actually turned into an attempt to prove that white people are discriminated against more than black people. :lol:

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Re: Paula Deen Out at Food Network

Postby The Old Doctor » Wed Jun 26, 2013 3:31 pm

Until racism is equally and realistically addressed and recognized by all or the majority at least, nothing will change. :smt011
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Re: Paula Deen Out at Food Network

Postby The Old Doctor » Wed Jun 26, 2013 3:34 pm

S.F. Jude Terror wrote::? I can't believe this argument has actually turned into an attempt to prove that white people are discriminated against more than black people. :lol:

:outhouse:


But what if it's true?

Besides, The Chinese hate both whites and blacks. So lets hate them together. :P

Other then that, the fun is gone as it was sorta fun to crap on this woman, who does appear to be a redneck bigot.
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Re: Paula Deen Out at Food Network

Postby Keb » Wed Jun 26, 2013 5:32 pm

S.F. Jude Terror wrote::? I can't believe this argument has actually turned into an attempt to prove that white people are discriminated against more than black people. :lol:

:outhouse:

Yeah well the thing is people here don't realize that racism against blacks (or any other ethnic group) has come from a superior attitude of the past generations of whites. Racism towards whites by blacks (or any other ethnic group) comes from a negative reaction to that superior attitude that the minorities have had to deal with.
Cat-Scratch wrote:Until racism is equally and realistically addressed and recognized by all or the majority at least, nothing will change. :smt011

Actually, until racism and how and why it happens is understood by the majority, nothing will change.
Cat-Scratch wrote:Since you're citing personal anecdotes, I've found the opposite here. I've both directly and indirectly encountered more discrimination then blacks and have found that also with violence. I've been attacked far more by blacks then whites or most any other group. Mostly during the last 20 years to note. I also hear from the majority of whites that, no, they do face racial discrimination and more so as time progresses. I also hear this from other groups as well such as South East Asians.


Oh, that happened a long time ago. Things are different. You need to get over it. Plus, whatever it was that made those blacks violent towards you was probably your own fault.

That's a paraphrase of shit I've been reading on this site for years. Someone has actually told me "get over" the discrimination I've experienced as a child. Do you really think the black person attacked you because he thought he was better than you? Probably not. He probably attacked you because he has been attacked by people who thought they were better than him. That's the usually the mentality when a minority lashes out against the majority. It's not a matter of "I hate you because you're less than.", it's a matter of "I hate you because someone who looks like you made me feel less than."

It's not a pissing contest. It's me absolutely fed up with the attitude that when someone stands up for a group of people I identify with, I become the bad guy that's constantly perpetuated by posters at this site.

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Re: Paula Deen Out at Food Network

Postby Rockman » Wed Jun 26, 2013 5:48 pm

I do feel that sometimes prejudice from the part of certain minority groups is justified because of the raw deal that group got in the past. I don't think that's really fair but what can you do, life isn't fair.

and Keb if I recall correctly about some of the stuff you dealt with growing up, it really sucks. One of my best friends went to a school that was 90% black, he got beat up almost every day because he was one of the only white kids there, and he was chubby (fatist too!!!) I really wouldn't wish that on anyone, and would hope that they wouldn't develop a sincere prejudice against the group for that happening to them, although I almost wouldn't blame if it did.

For me personally I've never encountered violence against me which was motivated by the color of my skin. I've experienced small slights because of it, but certainly nothing I'd really want to get bent out of shape about.

The only thing that happened to me once that really got me angry, I'm talking seeing red was a few years ago when I was teaching this math class. One of the kids in my class would never shut up when I was talking, every single day. So I punished him every single day (mostly sending him out into the hallway until I was done talking). So one day I go out to talk to him, and he accuses me of singling him out because he's black. That right there just infuriated me, never once in my life had I discriminated against someone because of the color of their skin, but this kid decides that his inability follow a simple direction wasn't the cause of the trouble he was in, but rather the teacher was a honky racist. :smt011
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Re: Paula Deen Out at Food Network

Postby Rockman » Wed Jun 26, 2013 5:53 pm

Racism will never be addressed seriously because it's a good diversion for the lower class. Why focus on the government fatcats sucking you dry when you can blame the brown person down the street?

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