The Outhouse - The Greatest Comic Book Forum

by **DonDaddyD** » Sat Apr 28, 2012 2:42 am

Personally if that was a comic, I'd be happy with it.

Now that I've calmed down a bit, I still think it was amazing but Captain America (Movie) was THE comic movie for me, that had everything.

As for a real no hope moment in this film, I don't think it needed it.

by **Arion** » Sat Apr 28, 2012 2:51 am

I saw it tonight.
And I enjoyed it. My friends did too (it was a mixed group, two of them read comic books and the other two don't).

by **sdsichero** » Sat Apr 28, 2012 3:22 am

Arion wrote:I saw it tonight.
And I enjoyed it. My friends did too (it was a mixed group, two of them read comic books and the other two don't).

Is the entire world seeing this before the USA? :smt011

by **PDH** » Sat Apr 28, 2012 10:14 am

It's official, Salwen has lost his mind. This is the best superhero movie to date by miles.

by **Doc Jon** » Sat Apr 28, 2012 10:37 am

PDH wrote:It's official, Salwen has lost his mind. This is the best superhero movie to date by miles.

If you say so. I think people are just hyped on it at the moment. Once people watch it a couple times, I don't think the same sheen will be on it. I think a lot of people just love that they get to see the Avengers on the big screen and that the movie didn't suck, and for some reason that alone was a feat.

This movie was not as good as other superhero film, not in terms of construction or story. If you thought it was, then cool, but honestly this is the fanboy version of Avatar.

by **PDH** » Sat Apr 28, 2012 11:16 am

Doc Jon wrote:
If you say so. I think people are just hyped on it at the moment. Once people watch it a couple times, I don't think the same sheen will be on it. I think a lot of people just love that they get to see the Avengers on the big screen and that the movie didn't suck, and for some reason that alone was a feat.

This movie was not as good as other superhero film, not in terms of construction or story. If you thought it was, then cool, but honestly this is the fanboy version of Avatar.

All movies are less impressive after you've watched them dozens of times. Are you really criticising a film because people enjoyed it too much? It's a bad thing that everyone was buzzing when they left the cinema? That makes what kind of sense?

The construction, story, characters, dialogue, action, themes etc. were all top-notch.

I mean, I honestly have no idea what you're talking about here at all. The construction of the story was inferior to other superhero films? The construction of the story? I can't think of any other superhero film that was as well constructed as this. Every character had a satisfying arc, all of which fit together beautifully and supported the other characters. It was masterful. Compare it with, say, TDK, which had a completely nonsensical plot. It only really involving three or four important characters and Nolan still, somehow, managed to completely drop the ball with some of them. And I'm talking about characters like Two-Face and, you know, Batman.

I've never seen Avatar but nothing else I've seen from Cameron comes close to this. For example, his grasp of characters is piss-poor. They are nearly always unlike-able twats and often not even in a very entertaining way. Comparing it with Whedon's characterisation is like night and day. Or take his dialogue. Cameron's dialogue is serviceable at best, he doesn't have anything like the wit or humour or creative voice that Whedon has, which was on full display in this film. He has a better grasp of action but that's not the say that Avengers wasn't chock full of excellent action scenes. I'm sick of Cameron, this was way better than anything he's done that I've seen.

by **Doc Jon** » Sat Apr 28, 2012 11:27 am

PDH wrote:
All movies are less impressive after you've watched them dozens of times. Are you really criticising a film because people enjoyed it too much? It's a bad thing that everyone was buzzing when they left the cinema? That makes what kind of sense?

The construction, story, characters, dialogue, action, themes etc. were all top-notch.

I mean, I honestly have no idea what you're talking about here at all. The construction of the story was inferior to other superhero films? The construction of the story? I can't think of any other superhero film that was as well constructed as this. Every character had a satisfying arc, all of which fit together beautifully and supported the other characters. It was masterful. Compare it with, say, TDK, which had a completely nonsensical plot. It only really involving three or four important characters and Nolan still, somehow, managed to completely drop the ball with some of them. And I'm talking about characters like Two-Face and, you know, Batman.

I've never seen Avatar but nothing else I've seen from Cameron comes close to this. For example, his grasp of characters is piss-poor. They are nearly always unlike-able twats and often not even in a very entertaining way. Comparing it with Whedon's characterisation is like night and day. Or take his dialogue. Cameron's dialogue is serviceable at best, he doesn't have anything like the wit or humour or creative voice that Whedon has, which was on full display in this film. He has a better grasp of action but that's not the say that Avengers wasn't chock full of excellent action scenes. I'm sick of Cameron, this was way better than anything he's done that I've seen.

Ok.

Aliens was a far superior movie to this. And so were the Terminator movies. The Abyss DC is a better movie.

It's a simple concept, people. Avengers was a fun, popcorn movie, but it was no deeper than that. It didn't even have the heart of something like Superman or Hellboy 2. And if we're counting things like Road to Perdition, then Avengers goes even further down the list.

It doesn't mean it wasn't a very fun movie. I'd watch it again any day.

Again, it's fast becoming the fanboy version of Avatar that geeks need to defend to the death and make it somehow deeper than what it was, a superficial action film with some good humor. I love Whedon's work, and I'm happy that the success of this film will mean he gets to pick his projects. Maybe we can get someone other than Michael Bay on a god damn geek property. That would be awesome. But the film is just decent.

by **Chris** » Sat Apr 28, 2012 11:48 am

Things aren't going Jon's way so he pulls the "everyone who likes this movie is a stupid fanboy" card.

by **Doc Jon** » Sat Apr 28, 2012 12:02 pm

Holland Oats wrote::lol:

Things aren't going Jon's way so he pulls the "everyone who likes this movie is a stupid fanboy" card.

If you had read my review, I said this was a fanwank and a fanfilm from the start.

So just because you're acting to type is no reason to be mad. :-D

I knew quite well that my opinions would not be received well. I guess people have a hard time hearing that I didn't think it was the greatest movie ever. It's not enough that I enjoyed the film and plan to see it at least once more in the theater, it has to be perfect as well. :derp:

by **PDH** » Sat Apr 28, 2012 12:23 pm

Doc Jon wrote:
Ok.

Aliens was a far superior movie to this. And so were the Terminator movies. The Abyss DC is a better movie.

It's a simple concept, people. Avengers was a fun, popcorn movie, but it was no deeper than that. It didn't even have the heart of something like Superman or Hellboy 2. And if we're counting things like Road to Perdition, then Avengers goes even further down the list.

It doesn't mean it wasn't a very fun movie. I'd watch it again any day.

Again, it's fast becoming the fanboy version of Avatar that geeks need to defend to the death and make it somehow deeper than what it was, a superficial action film with some good humor. I love Whedon's work, and I'm happy that the success of this film will mean he gets to pick his projects. Maybe we can get someone other than Michael Bay on a god damn geek property. That would be awesome. But the film is just decent.

Originally, your argument was that our enjoyment of the film was clouding our enjoyment of the film. You were basically saying, 'yeah, well, if people didn't like it so much they'd see that it was just decent.' Since you've dropped this line of argument I'm going to assume that you now concede that the fact that people were incredibly hyped after seeing the film is, in fact, a point in its favour.

Moving on.

Your new argument seems to be that we are just pretending to have enjoyed it out of some kind of fanboy loyalty, even though the majority of people who have seen it are not fanboys and fanboys, if anything, are overly critical and nitpicky of movies based on beloved properties from their childhood. This is an especially odd thing for you to say because the audience is many orders of magnitude larger than the comic book audience and most people praising it have never picked up an Avengers comic in their life. I've had to explain who the Avengers are to nearly everyone I know. I've lost count of the number of times I've had to say things like, 'no, Wonder Woman is from DC, the Avengers are Marvel.'

Of course, this reasoning works the other way around, as well. I could just as easily say that you are only playing down its obvious quality out of your weird, contrarian approach to movies. We could spend all day psycho-analysing each other's alleged hidden motives for liking or not liking something or we could accept the fact that large numbers of people claiming to really love a movie is something we are more likely to observe on the hypothesis that, you know, they actually do like it.

It was better than Superman and Hellboy 2. It had far more heart than either of those movies and was massively more enjoyable and more to the point it was superior in terms of things like characters, characterisation, acting, dialogue etc. Road to Perdition is not a Superhero movie but Avengers achieved what it set out to do to a better extent than Perdition did. Perdition tried to be a gangster film and did a great job but most of the best films in cinema belong to that genre so it had a lot to live up to. In the end it was overly sentimental and clearly not in the same league as, say, Goodfellas. The Avengers set out to be both a huge summer epic and a character piece. It aced both tests with flying colours. In that genre it stands alone. No other Superhero film is as epic as this one. No other Superhero film has as a better handle on its characters.

What makes it so great is that it works on the level of a blockbuster AND it holds up as compelling character-driven drama. It's everything you could want from this kind of movie.

by **Punchy** » Sat Apr 28, 2012 12:53 pm

What PDH said.

by **Doc Jon** » Sat Apr 28, 2012 1:30 pm

Couldn't even bother to read it...

by **Doc Jon** » Sat Apr 28, 2012 1:32 pm

It was a fun decent film and I hope people like it.

The fanboy butthurt is already glorious because one voice deems to say he doesn't think it's a great film. :-D

by **Doc Jon** » Sat Apr 28, 2012 2:07 pm

Here are a couple reviews from Rotten Tomatoes (all of these are positive, by the way):

1. ‘The Avengers” is neither overwhelming nor underwhelming. What it expertly is, is whelming... All of this blockbustery business is pleasing enough, but the surprising secret of Joss Whedon’s film is this: It’s best when the finally gathered Marvel Comics heroes Thor, Iron Man, Hulk and Captain America are just sitting around ragging on each other as though lounging in Central Perk. Yes, this is at heart super-“Friends,” a surprisingly witty comedy with a comic book wrapped around it.

2. By then Whedon has given all the stars their closeups, on the way to restoring order to the universe — the Marvel universe, that is. Sequels to Iron Man and Captain America are due next year, with the whole gang coming a bit after that, in an endless separating and recombination of the central team. The new enterprise is just one lavish element in the grand design. With plenty of incident, but limited glimpses into each superhero’s soul, the picture falls short of the finest Marvel film, the original Iron Man. For all the entertainment value of Whedon’s film, the question lingers: Is The Avengers too much for one movie, or not enough?

3. What reminds you that Marvel’s movie is modern, and sadly no marvel, is that it talks a good talk in being old fashioned without utilising classic storytelling values, the kind that might have impastoed those comic book panels. The on-screen team up is mirrored behind the scenes; every major effects house has come together to stuff the frame with computer generated destruction. But this, like its predecessors, is still a b-movie. There’s no moment in The Avengers to compare with the slaughter of Bruce Wayne’s parents in Batman (1989) or Jonathan Kent’s collapse in Superman (1978). These were the scenes that defined characters and added emotion. They reminded you that you were watching a movie and not just enjoying a product. We’re still waiting for Marvel to serve us a main meal that feels that satisfying. In the meantime, Tony Stark reworking the “I’ve got a Donk” joke from Crocodile Dundee II will have to suffice.

Some are harsher, some are glowing, but I am hardly alone in some of my assessments. Deal with it, fanboys.