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[S.F. Jude Terror]

Cat Scratch has a hate-on for Claremont.

[Cat-Scratch]

and I am the opposite, if a book is ongoing and the writer wraps everything up before they leave it makes the transition horrendous. Imagine Thunderbolts if Busiek had wrapped everything up before Fabian had a chance to build on it, Daredevil if Bendis had wrapped up Matt's legal troubles and he was out of jail before Brubaker got there. And, its not old school for you to need that, its new school to need sub plots to be wrapped up, to leave nothing for future writers / the imagination. I cannot think of one major plot point thta Claremont left undone from his initial run, but what I do remember is the beutiful slow burn that was Phoenix, Muir Island, and how he still is the only writer that makes Storm interesting.

I cannot imagine what comics would look like today if every writer had to clean up every idea out of a book before their run ended

I can respect that, but as I said, concepts and plots are two different things and also if planned for a hand off is one thing. Also, sorry but I disagree, it's just an old school thing as I've said, concepts, not plots. Claremont was fine for major, but for the rest, a bit all over the road. Phoenix? That was something that was done quickly compared to other character plotlines. Yes, he is the only writer to make Storm interesting as a writer, to that I agree with you. Ha-ha, I love it when people point to the C&B era, that was when things tended to get wrapped up more then not, at least until towards the end.

I can, it would look much like most of the 90s and prior not to mention like some of the better if not best books out there during the 90s and even today. Sandman, Starman, Transmetroplotain, Preacher, Watchmen, American Flagg, Dreadstar...

It was rather enjoyable to get an over all story completed within a year or less and not dragged out to whenever someone else decided to finish it, if at all.

[Juan Cena]

i really can't either. hell, the longest running "unresolved" plot thread i can remember was the whole stupid "3rd Summers brother" nonsense, which started IIRC with Nicieza, and ran for over a decade before Brubaker introduced Vulcan.

And I'm somewhat sure that it was supposed to be Gambit originally.

[Juan Cena]

Thanks to Jude, however him accusing me of hating Chris Claremont was a little weird!

He does that with everyone that doesn't agree with him in his blind love of Claremont.

Twigg has Bendis, Jude has Claremont.

But here's a big question, does Claremont ever complete a plot?

He had. It's just that good stories can naturally spin off a number of other stories from its conclusion.

[GHERU]

I can respect that, but as I said, concepts and plots are two different things and also if planned for a hand off is one thing. Also, sorry but I disagree, it's just an old school thing as I've said, concepts, not plots. Claremont was fine for major, but for the rest, a bit all over the road. Phoenix? That was something that was done quickly compared to other character plotlines. Yes, he is the only writer to make Storm interesting as a writer, to that I agree with you. Ha-ha, I love it when people point to the C&B era, that was when things tended to get wrapped up more then not, at least until towards the end.

I can, it would look much like most of the 90s and prior not to mention like some of the better if not best books out there during the 90s and even today. Sandman, Starman, Transmetroplotain, Preacher, Watchmen, American Flagg, Dreadstar...

It was rather enjoyable to get an over all story completed within a year or less and not dragged out to whenever someone else decided to finish it, if at all.

but, most of your examples were self contained finite creator owned (or at least controlled) books. Like I said, for on-goings that will change writers wrapping everything up hurts the transition.

did Sandman ever wrap up the Delight --> Delirum plot?
futhermore without the plot thread from Sandman we never would have had Lucifer

[GHERU]

And I'm somewhat sure that it was supposed to be Gambit originally.

for like 2 issues, his powers came from his eyes

[Cat-Scratch]

Cat Scratch has a hate-on for Claremont.

Nope, I just like pulling your and other Claremont fan chains and I don't see him as this writing giant as you guys do. If I hated him I'd never had read any of the comics he wrote. The only ones so far has been X-Men Forever since money is tight and I'm not so sure I want to read an out of continuity title.

His stuff is enjoyable, but I've long found him to be a lazy writer. He can dialog the hell out of a comic, but he drags the hell out of his plots to the point of often dropping the minor ones either from laziness or forgetfulness, I've found over the decades.

X-Men Forever could very well be the best X-Title out there right now for several simple reasons.

1 - It's self contained, so no having to crossover with other plots or restrictions on characters.
2 - He's got clear slate to work with since it's out of continuity and can do somethings as reported by you and others concerning characters.
3 - Since he wrote the characters for so long, he brings a familiar voice and nostalgia.
4 - He's not Bendis.
5 - After a break, he could be in a better creative stride and perhaps past his previous "bad habits".

[Cat-Scratch]

nah
the last time I got into a discussion about X-Books that happened in the 1980s my use of facts got me called all kinds of mean names

/tryingtolearnfromexperiance'd

Yeah, but that wasn't me. We're just having a pleasant disagreement.

[Cat-Scratch]

He had. It's just that good stories can naturally spin off a number of other stories from its conclusion.

Those are called concepts or lead ins. Not a resolved plot.

Comics and sequels are rife with them and part of the norm. But leaving stuff?

[Cat-Scratch]

but, most of your examples were self contained finite creator owned (or at least controlled) books. Like I said, for on-goings that will change writers wrapping everything up hurts the transition.

did Sandman ever wrap up the Delight --> Delirum plot?
futhermore without the plot thread from Sandman we never would have had Lucifer

Levitz on LoSH, Roy Thomas on All-Star Squadron, Wolfman on New Teen Titans, Simonson on Thor ... need more? On goings have for decades completed plotlines and not hurt transitions in the past. As I said, a set up is one thing, but when a writer goes for 15 years on a title and leaves stuff laying about for years is just lazy. It's soap opera writing.

Again, concepts concerning Lucifer. As far as I know, that plot was completed for Delight's change. Look carefully, you may have run over it since it was made into a major resolve.

[Cat-Scratch]

for like 2 issues, his powers came from his eyes

Yup. It seemed Claremont was either unsure what he was going to do and testing the waters with Gambit or was bringing in something from someone else, like an artist of the time.

I think chastising Claremont over Gambit would be akin to doing so over Bishop. He had little to do with what went on or the character.

[Juan Cena]

Those are called concepts or lead ins. Not a resolved plot.

Comics and sequels are rife with them and part of the norm. But leaving stuff?

You have to keep in mind that Claremont was pretty much fired the first time around.

[GLX]

In fact, since Invincible is practically Spider-Man Forever, I think fans of that type of book would really enjoy X-Men Forever.

[Cat-Scratch]

You have to keep in mind that Claremont was pretty much fired the first time around.

No, he quit. That's fact. He didn't like no longer being the top dog compared to Jim Lee or Wilce Portacio and left. Who could blame him though?

But then, he tried to have a go at self owned with his Huntsman characters via Jim Lee and ... we saw how that went.

I honestly believe that was one of the biggest blunders Marvel did back then, in retrospect. They should have found a way to keep him on and those two on the titles. The only drawback would have been no Age of Apocalypse, no Generation X and ... well that's about it other then a few characters like Maggot that got kacked by others later anyways.

[Cat-Scratch]

In fact, since Invincible is practically Spider-Man Forever, I think fans of that type of book would really enjoy X-Men Forever.

I think seems like a fair comment. In a sense. The quote, not the , to note for clarity.