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Postby KillerShrike » Sat Jul 05, 2008 2:38 pm

rdrsfn82 wrote:Again you are misusing the term "over". "Over" means you can sell the character to sell PPVs, merchandise, and/or DVDs. Umaga is a wasted talent and nowhere near over. He's a good heel, but no one thinks of him as a legit top title contender. He should be, but he isn't. As for JBL, he doesn't sell a ton of merchandise, but a JBL DVD would sell well and he also sells PPVs, hence him being in main events and having long title reigns. I'd also argue he's more over and better used as an announcer, but that's another argument.

You can love the Vickie character all you want, but don't try to say she's "over". She's hated and booed, but she doesn't increase interest in the product and she doesn't sell anything. The WWE is about money. If every heel was someone the crowd hated watching they wouldn't watch the programs. Hopefully we are near the end of her time on TV. A good heel is someone you love to hate, not someone you hate.



Over means getting a strong reaction from the crowd, which Vicky does. And she does increase interest because people can't wait see what the face does to her in retaliation for her screwing with them. If she wasn't doing her job (which includes making money) WWE would have dropped this plotline months ago. And good heel is someone who is hated, if you love to hate a heel too much, he/she might as well be a face.

And I never said I loved the Vickie character. I simply pointed out the fact she is over more than almost every other heel. You can go on about Xpac heat (which really doesn't apply to a heel anyway, since its a heel's job to get booed), but facts are facts: the WWE wants people to hate the character and the fans have obliged them.

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Postby jza1218 » Mon Jul 07, 2008 9:18 pm

This newest RAW is pretty boring.

Anyone else thinking that CM Punk is going to become a heel soon? It's Cena and Cryme Tyme vs. JBL for the most part? Im thinking Punk aligns himself with JBL as his new protege or he's bought off

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Postby Deux » Mon Jul 07, 2008 9:46 pm

jza1218 wrote:This newest RAW is pretty boring.

Anyone else thinking that CM Punk is going to become a heel soon? It's Cena and Cryme Tyme vs. JBL for the most part? Im thinking Punk aligns himself with JBL as his new protege or he's bought off


Where were the tag champs?

Why kill the Santino/Rey feud so quick after one of the funniest segments on Raw ever?

Why abort a chance to endow Punk's character with some depth by not giving him a platform to cut a classic new champion promo?

Exactly how much money does Kofi Kingston owe Charlie Haas??

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Postby Deux » Mon Jul 07, 2008 10:02 pm

Looks like no one came to Kane's birthday party.

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Postby Tattooed Jesus » Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:10 pm

jza1218 wrote:This newest RAW is pretty boring.

Anyone else thinking that CM Punk is going to become a heel soon? It's Cena and Cryme Tyme vs. JBL for the most part? Im thinking Punk aligns himself with JBL as his new protege or he's bought off


I don't know dude it kept me pretty entertained. The bit at teh beginning was predictable and kinda lame, excpet the part about Kane showing up, I didn't see that coming. I do wish they would just let Punk cut loose on the mic for once, I mean damn it would have been so bad ass if he would have just pimped Cena and told him to drink a tall glass of shut the fuck up!!!

That said I am enjoying both Cena and Cryme Tyme together much more than I ever did before. I think they are a natural fit with one another. JBL and Cena have great chemistry with one another as well, and I for one enjoy the hell outta their feuds.

I loved the segment with HBK and Y2J, they are still 2 of the best there have ever been, and hopefully just a little of their greatness can rub off on Lance Cade, because I have always thought he had the potential to be a main event star.

Snitsky vs Punk was lame, but thats because Jesus Christ or even Ric Flair couldn't have a decent match with Snitsky.

Kofi is over like a muthafucka on RAW!! I am so waiting for the day he turns on the crowd much like the great one...Rocky Maivia did back in thre day. Yes I can see this coming in a few years, mark my words it will happen. Having him go against Burchill right now is ok, but Burchill have never been able to get over in the past and I really don't see it happening now.

The Fatal 4 Way main event was pretty damn good, there were a few stiff spots by all 4 men that looked like they hurt like hell. I figured Batista would get yet another shot at the World Title at another PPV, because JBL and Cena have a way strong enough feud going at the moment, that the title doesn't even need to be involved. I was confused about what was going on with Kane at the end of the show though? He was screaming something about "Tell Me is he ALive or Dead"? I thought and still think this might be the set up for a return of the Undertaker, anyone else have any thoughts?
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Postby Zechs » Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:11 pm

I liked this RAW too. It felt refreshing.
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Postby rdrsfn82 » Tue Jul 08, 2008 12:53 am

I'm watching the show right now, I just got past the Punk/Snitsky match, and it's been a major missed opportunity so far. I understand why you'd want to have Punk fight Snitsky, to prove that he can pick up a beat a large opponent in case Kane or Dave wins the Fatal Fourway, but so far there's been way too much attention on JBL vs Cena. I'm not feeling that. An hour into the show and Santino got his ass kicked and none of the other feuds or young guys have gotten any attention. It's like they took chances last week, got good buzz, and then right back to what was going on a few weeks ago and ignored what created the buzz in the first place. I hope the ending improves on the show, but so far it's a major disappointment.
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Postby rdrsfn82 » Tue Jul 08, 2008 1:08 am

I'm at nearly the end of the show and I just saw the guy run out during the thing with Dave and I have to say I really hope they stop this crap. It looked like that and the light falling were staged events to show "anything" can happen during a live show. That's going to get really old if they keep it up.
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Postby rdrsfn82 » Tue Jul 08, 2008 1:20 am

I loved the moment in the main event when Kane had JBL and Cena by the throat and they worked together to knock him down and then looked at each other for a moment before getting back to fighting. That was well done. I think Dave is a good opponent for Punk considering how he won the title.

I also like having crazy evil Kane back. I'm sure it's a set up for the Undertaker to return, but I always enjoy evil Kane and silly Kane the most. Since we will likely never get "Kane-enites" Kane back I'll take evil Kane.

Overall I felt this show was going right back to what was making it feel stale and ignoring the stuff that made last week so good. They need to focus back on Tag Teams and fresh faces. The most exciting feud with established guys is HBK vs Jericho, but that only got one short segment. which was the best part of the show.

I hope the show can get back on track and live up to potential, but this week was not a promising episode.
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Postby Deux » Tue Jul 08, 2008 7:35 am

rdrsfn82 wrote:I also like having crazy evil Kane back. I'm sure it's a set up for the Undertaker to return, but I always enjoy evil Kane and silly Kane the most. Since we will likely never get "Kane-enites" Kane back I'll take evil Kane.


I think the party whose status of living is in question would be Vince.

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Postby KillerShrike » Tue Jul 08, 2008 8:05 am

Destiny Frankenstein wrote:I think the party whose status of living is in question would be Vince.


Probably, but why would he care if Vince is alive or dead? Unless he's the one who tried to kill him in the first place. But why would he do that? Unless he really liked ECW....

I thought maybe he was going berserk over 'Taker, and this was a way of setting up his return, but I've seen people online theorize Kane is talking about himself, and whether or not the evil, unstoppable Kane from early in his career is dead given his recent losses.

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Postby Deux » Tue Jul 08, 2008 8:12 am

KillerShrike wrote:Probably, but why would he care if Vince is alive or dead? Unless he's the one who tried to kill him in the first place. But why would he do that? Unless he really liked ECW....

I thought maybe he was going berserk over 'Taker, and this was a way of setting up his return, but I've seen people online theorize Kane is talking about himself, and whether or not the evil, unstoppable Kane from early in his career is dead given his recent losses.


Undertaker is banished...not dead. He walked out of ONS under his own power.

Regardless, chokeslamming Michael Cole will only get you cheered.

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Postby Tattooed Jesus » Tue Jul 08, 2008 8:23 am

KillerShrike wrote:Probably, but why would he care if Vince is alive or dead? Unless he's the one who tried to kill him in the first place. But why would he do that? Unless he really liked ECW....

I thought maybe he was going berserk over 'Taker, and this was a way of setting up his return, but I've seen people online theorize Kane is talking about himself, and whether or not the evil, unstoppable Kane from early in his career is dead given his recent losses.


Vince is feasible as he does like to have himself really in the mix, so I wouldn't count that theory out.

Talking about himself could be interesting, maybe even leading to the return of the masked Kane, or maybe a Kane with personality disorders of somekind, where we all different sorts of Kane's show up.

I really think it has something to do with Taker though, even though when we last saw him he walked out on his own, not one of his mysterious departures.
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Postby Tattooed Jesus » Tue Jul 08, 2008 8:25 am

rdrsfn82 wrote:I loved the moment in the main event when Kane had JBL and Cena by the throat and they worked together to knock him down and then looked at each other for a moment before getting back to fighting. That was well done. I think Dave is a good opponent for Punk considering how he won the title.

I also like having crazy evil Kane back. I'm sure it's a set up for the Undertaker to return, but I always enjoy evil Kane and silly Kane the most. Since we will likely never get "Kane-enites" Kane back I'll take evil Kane.

Overall I felt this show was going right back to what was making it feel stale and ignoring the stuff that made last week so good. They need to focus back on Tag Teams and fresh faces. The most exciting feud with established guys is HBK vs Jericho, but that only got one short segment. which was the best part of the show.

I hope the show can get back on track and live up to potential, but this week was not a promising episode.


The only thing that I think they really screwed up on was not letting Punk take center stage at the beginning of the show, he was waaaaaaaaaaay overshadowed by Cena. And they should have had the Tag Champs on the show, other than that I think it was a very entertaining show.
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Postby KillerShrike » Tue Jul 08, 2008 8:27 am

Destiny Frankenstein wrote:Undertaker is banished...not dead. He walked out of ONS under his own power.



Maybe he didn't show up for the family July 4th barbecue, and his brother is concerned

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