The Outhouse - The Greatest Comic Book Forum

[Grayson]

Yeah, if you fail a test. An arrest for possession is, I believe, a violation.

Rob Van Dam was forced to drop both the WWE and ECW Championships following his drug related arrest. I realize that Jack Swagger put the WWE between a rock and a hard place by being arrested 2 days after being handed the title shot but if you are going to have a Wellness Program and enforce it, show some consistency. Give the opportunity to another superstar. Although, I wouldn't be too surprised if the WWE has Ziggler cash in after the match and steal the win and the show from whoever actually wins the match.

[syxxpakk]

Rob Van Dam didn't get them near the amount of publicity Swagger has.

[misac]

Agreed. Everyone complained about Brodus getting stuck with a lame gimmick but Fandango is any worse than the Funkasaurus. Fandango reminds of a really bad Saturday Night Live skit that would have bee done by Chris Kattan.

I liked Brodus when he came out dancing.

[Grayson]

Also, remember how Steve Austin, Triple H, the Rock, Rikishi, Edge, Christian, and, well, you get the point, were saddled forever with shitty gimmicks that made it so they'd never get over?

I never once said that it was impossible for him to get over just that it would seriously hurt his chances, especially if he gets stuck with this gimmick. Some of the names that you mentioned are clearly exceptions to the rule. Steve Austin was already an accomplished wrestler when he joined the WWE in 1995 and by June of 1996 he was well on his way to becoming Stone Cold. Triple H has always been lucky to have friends in the right places. Dwayne Johnson wasn't even the "Blue Chipper" for a year before he joined the Nation of the Domination and became the Rock. Edge and Christian got lucky when the Brood was assimilated by the Ministry of Darkness and even though Christian had a successful run on the mid-card, it wasn't until he went to TNA that he was finally taken seriously as a main eventer.

By the way, why the crap is Rikishi even on your list? He is a prime example of a wrestler getting saddler with a bad gimmick and never really recovering from it. Once he became the fat guy dancing, it stuck with him for the rest of his career. Yeah, he went heel for awhile but nothing came from it and he went right back to dancing when it was over.

Talent rises above. That's why Curtis will get over.

Sometimes but why don't you tell that to Lance Storm or Dean Malenko when they came to the WWE. What about guys like Shelton Benjamin, Charlie Haas, Paul London, Brian Kendrick, Jerry Lynn, Taka Michinoku, or even Low Ki? Did their talent help them?

Rob Van Dam didn't get them near the amount of publicity Swagger has.

From the moment that Rob Van Dam stepped foot in the WWE he was easily one of the most over guys on the roster. He didn't need to get the WWE publicity because his name was selling merchandise. The difference between Rob Van Dam and Jack Swagger is that Vince McMahon did not create Rob Van Dam.

[syxxpakk]

You might not have known this, but Rikishi made his debut in wrestling in the 80s. He went through a ton of shit gimmicks from being your stereotypical Samoan, to a nice thug, to the Sultan, before dancing made him one of the biggest acts during the WWE's biggest business year ever.



When I say talent, I don't necessarily mean in-ring abilities. Of those you mentioned, the ones with strong personalities IMO would be Storm, Malenko, Haas, London, and Kendrick. Michinoku does too, but it's a different kind and it doesn't work in America unfortunately. Regardless, while they have strong personalities that when used effectively (Malenko's late 2000-run or his feud with Jericho; Storm in WCW; Haas now in ROH; London and Kendrick on the indy scene), I don't think anyone would ever compare them to the same level as the ones I mentioned.


Where do you get that his name was selling merch? I mean it might have been but I don't know that's as on point as you think it is. I don't think he was ever a major mover either way, except maybe early on in 2001. But it has nothing to do with him being an ECW-creation and everything to do with Jack Swagger getting tons of publicity for his character. If RVD was getting the kind of press at the time he got busted that Swagger is now, it probably would have happened a lot differently.

EDIT: Sorry, I somehow lost all of your quotes. Good luck trying to decipher that, heh.

[KING King Impulse]

People complain about how no-one has GIMMICKS anymore, and everyone in WWE has boring, normal person names like, for example, Johnny Curtis. Now WWE seems to be having a slight shift back to CHARACTERS with dudes like Brodus, Tensai and Fandango, and still people complain.

Everyone goes on about a return to the attitude era, but what's the difference between Fandango and Scotty 2 Hotty, really? Or Gangrel for that matter? or any of the other ridiculous characters that were about back then?

Fandango is fun. I love his Mortal Kombat backstory of 'conquering the ballroom, now trying his hand at the squared circle' It's ridiculous, it's stupid and it's fun. Wrestling is sometimes.

[Punchy]

I did like how just before Fan.. Dan.. Goooo... was about to say his name, some nerd in the crowd screamed out 'JOHNNY CURTIS!!!', that was funny.

[Grayson]

EDIT: Sorry, I somehow lost all of your quotes. Good luck trying to decipher that, heh.

It's ok, I'll figure it out.

You might not have known this, but Rikishi made his debut in wrestling in the 80s. He went through a ton of shit gimmicks from being your stereotypical Samoan, to a nice thug, to the Sultan, before dancing made him one of the biggest acts during the WWE's biggest business year ever.

I did know that but I admit that I was so concentrated on how ridiculous his dancing gimmick was that I didn't take it into account when I was responding to your post. Regardless, aside from a very brief run as a heel, his level of success is no where near the level of any of the other names that you mentioned.

When I say talent, I don't necessarily mean in-ring abilities. Of those you mentioned, the ones with strong personalities IMO would be Storm, Malenko, Haas, London, and Kendrick. Michinoku does too, but it's a different kind and it doesn't work in America unfortunately. Regardless, while they have strong personalities that when used effectively (Malenko's late 2000-run or his feud with Jericho; Storm in WCW; Haas now in ROH; London and Kendrick on the indy scene), I don't think anyone would ever compare them to the same level as the ones I mentioned.

In the case of most of the wrestlers I named, unfortunately we will never know what could have been if they had been given proper pushes in the WWE. Lance Storm should have dominated the mid-card until he was rightfully raised to the main event but instead, his style was mocked and he was unfairly buried. Dean Malenko could have had the same type of success as Chris Benoit or Eddie Guerrero but he never even had a chance to succeed in the WWE because he was immediately stuck in the neglected Light Heavyweight division and then forced into feuds with Divas. One of the best technical wrestlers of all time and a former member of the Four Horsemen, reduced to fighting Divas.

Where do you get that his name was selling merch? I mean it might have been but I don't know that's as on point as you think it is. I don't think he was ever a major mover either way, except maybe early on in 2001.

Between 2001 and the time he left the WWE in 2007, Rob Van Dam was consistently one of the most over superstars on the roster. He was definitely more over than Rikishi. Sure, his name wasn't Stone Cold Steve Austin, The Rock, or Triple H but just go back and watch any of his matches and watch the crowd. They absolutely loved him. The problem was, Rob Van Dam was an established name before he came to the WWE and Vince McMahon couldn't add anything to the character. Because of that, he suffered in mid-card hell for years before they finally gave him the opportunity. Unfortunately, he screwed himself by violating the rules of the WWE's Wellness Program.

But it has nothing to do with him being an ECW-creation and everything to do with Jack Swagger getting tons of publicity for his character. If RVD was getting the kind of press at the time he got busted that Swagger is now, it probably would have happened a lot differently.

The mainstream controversy surrounding Swagger and Colter's characters is already dying out. There will be no long term benefit from outside the WWE Universe for it. Regardless, it shouldn't matter if he draws one ass to a seat or one million. Jacob Hager made a boneheaded mistake, I don't think that he should be fired for it but I definitely think that there should be some type of consistency shown on the WWE's part. If you are going to take championships away from a guy for violating the policy, the least you can do is take away another person's title shot. Otherwise, what's to stop the next guy from violating the policy? What happens then? Jack Swagger gets off scott free but what about the next guy? "What's that Vince, you're going to let me go because I smoked a joint? Jack Swagger was arrested for a DUI and drug possession and he got to wrestle for the World Heavyweight Championship at Wrestlemania!"

[syxxpakk]

I did know that but I admit that I was so concentrated on how ridiculous his dancing gimmick was that I didn't take it into account when I was responding to your post. Regardless, aside from a very brief run as a heel, his level of success is no where near the level of any of the other names that you mentioned.

Well I never said Rikishi was on their level, just that he was a guy who went from shitty gimmicks to be a top-player, which is exactly what he was in 2000. I think what you're doing, though, is misinterpreting your personal preferences for what was successful. Whether you thought his gimmick was ridiculous or not, it doesn't change that it was insanely successful during that time.

In the case of most of the wrestlers I named, unfortunately we will never know what could have been if they had been given proper pushes in the WWE. Lance Storm should have dominated the mid-card until he was rightfully raised to the main event but instead, his style was mocked and he was unfairly buried. Dean Malenko could have had the same type of success as Chris Benoit or Eddie Guerrero but he never even had a chance to succeed in the WWE because he was immediately stuck in the neglected Light Heavyweight division and then forced into feuds with Divas. One of the best technical wrestlers of all time and a former member of the Four Horsemen, reduced to fighting Divas.

Eddie Guerrero was neglected to feuding with Chyna and Essa Rios over the European title when he started. Eddie Guerrero thrived because he has a billions times the personality of Dean Malenko. And Benoit wasn't that successful. Business was very weak under him (Eddie too - part of the reason Eddie wanted to drop the belt at the time).

Between 2001 and the time he left the WWE in 2007, Rob Van Dam was consistently one of the most over superstars on the roster. He was definitely more over than Rikishi. Sure, his name wasn't Stone Cold Steve Austin, The Rock, or Triple H but just go back and watch any of his matches and watch the crowd. They absolutely loved him. The problem was, Rob Van Dam was an established name before he came to the WWE and Vince McMahon couldn't add anything to the character. Because of that, he suffered in mid-card hell for years before they finally gave him the opportunity. Unfortunately, he screwed himself by violating the rules of the WWE's Wellness Program.

I don't think RVD was as big as you're making him out to have been. Certainly he was a star and certainly he had his supporters, but he was never majorly over. It's hard to compare him to Rikishi because Rikishi was incredibly over during a time when the business was on fire, while I feel RVD was moderately over during a time when the business was stagnant. RVD was never a major business-mover, I don't think. I won't say he wasn't a major merch-pusher like you did, but I don't ever think I've heard it being that way. I don't think anyone shows he's ever main evented, outside of of maybe One Night Stand 2, would be regarded as "big buyrate shows." So in that respect, I don't know. I think you're overrating him.

The mainstream controversy surrounding Swagger and Colter's characters is already dying out. There will be no long term benefit from outside the WWE Universe for it. Regardless, it shouldn't matter if he draws one ass to a seat or one million. Jacob Hager made a boneheaded mistake, I don't think that he should be fired for it but I definitely think that there should be some type of consistency shown on the WWE's part. If you are going to take championships away from a guy for violating the policy, the least you can do is take away another person's title shot. Otherwise, what's to stop the next guy from violating the policy? What happens then? Jack Swagger gets off scott free but what about the next guy? "What's that Vince, you're going to let me go because I smoked a joint? Jack Swagger was arrested for a DUI and drug possession and he got to wrestle for the World Heavyweight Championship at Wrestlemania!"

The controversy dying out and there being no benefit are both possibly true. That doesn't change that when Swagger got busted, you had right-wing news people going stir crazy over his character. When RVD got busted, it was a big story for wrestling - but that's it, as the rest of the world didn't even pay attention. If RVD had been the the centerpiece of a major controversial brouhaha that was getting all kinds of notice from the world at large, not only would RVD have not dropped the belt the following Monday - he wouldn't have dropped the belt like he was planned to (allegedly and according to Meltzer) at the following PPV. It's genuinely two different stories.

Now, as for your complaint about it not being fair. Look, I said it earlier. "You mean something in wrestling isn't on the up-and-up?!" If you expect everything to be fair and just in ALL OF PRO WRESTLING, let alone WWE, I suggest a different avenue of entertainment. It's never been that way and it never will be. This goes back to guys hooking and screwing people over for championships, breaking legs to show the business is real, right down to using carny terminology to insult fans (marks). This is not an honest business.

[TROY]

I liked Brodus when he came out dancing.

Yeah so did I but there was a general consensus among most IWC members that they didn't like it and he was a failure on arrival.

[TROY]

Also, remember how Steve Austin, Triple H, the Rock, Rikishi, Edge, Christian, and, well, you get the point, were saddled forever with shitty gimmicks that made it so they'd never get over?

Talent rises above. That's why Curtis will get over.

Steve Austin was all kinds over as Stunning Steve Austin in the USWA, WCCW, NWA/WCW and as a member of the Hollywood Blondes well before he came to WWE and got handed the shitty Ring Master gimmick which lasted about as long as a hiccup. He blew up when he got to be Stone Cold but he was already very popular before then. He was not some scrub.

HHH had a couple shitty gimmicks but he worked the blue blood snob gimmick so well that it took and he ran with and made it his thing and made himself get noticed. Like Austin he became most popular with his turn in DX when his character was just a natural extension of his personality. He wasn't some scrub either.

Edge and Christian came in as Edge and Christian and just grew and developed those characters over time, I never though their gimmicks were shitty at all.

Rikishi was part of the Samoan SWAT TEAM! One of the most bad ass teams ever so I forgive him for being the dancing fool, because you already knew like the others they talent was there you had seen it already.

Rock yeah he was pretty much a scrub and I damned him to fail right off the bat. Wasn't until he began doing his talking in third person deal that I took notice of him and saw that he had "it".

Curtis to me is a scrub. I don't see in him what I saw in any of the above mentioned at any point in their careers. Could I be wrong fuck yeah I could but I don't think I am. I think he sucks and is unentertaining. I would rather see Ryder or Bo Dallas get the time he is getting.

[TROY]

People complain about how no-one has GIMMICKS anymore, and everyone in WWE has boring, normal person names like, for example, Johnny Curtis. Now WWE seems to be having a slight shift back to CHARACTERS with dudes like Brodus, Tensai and Fandango, and still people complain.

Everyone goes on about a return to the attitude era, but what's the difference between Fandango and Scotty 2 Hotty, really? Or Gangrel for that matter? or any of the other ridiculous characters that were about back then?

Fandango is fun. I love his Mortal Kombat backstory of 'conquering the ballroom, now trying his hand at the squared circle' It's ridiculous, it's stupid and it's fun. Wrestling is sometimes.

I'm all for characters but I want characters that are fun and entertaining. Brodus is awesome and I love him and Sweet T, the Monsters of Funk! I just don't find Fandango to be entertaining or fun. I find him to be boring and stupid.

[Bianco]

Steve Austin was all kinds over as Stunning Steve Austin in the USWA, WCCW, NWA/WCW and as a member of the Hollywood Blondes well before he came to WWE and got handed the shitty Ring Master gimmick which lasted about as long as a hiccup. He blew up when he got to be Stone Cold but he was already very popular before then. He was not some scrub.

HHH had a couple shitty gimmicks but he worked the blue blood snob gimmick so well that it took and he ran with and made it his thing and made himself get noticed. Like Austin he became most popular with his turn in DX when his character was just a natural extension of his personality. He wasn't some scrub either.

Edge and Christian came in as Edge and Christian and just grew and developed those characters over time, I never though their gimmicks were shitty at all.

Rikishi was part of the Samoan SWAT TEAM! One of the most bad ass teams ever so I forgive him for being the dancing fool, because you already knew like the others they talent was there you had seen it already.

Rock yeah he was pretty much a scrub and I damned him to fail right off the bat. Wasn't until he began doing his talking in third person deal that I took notice of him and saw that he had "it".

Curtis to me is a scrub. I don't see in him what I saw in any of the above mentioned at any point in their careers. Could I be wrong fuck yeah I could but I don't think I am. I think he sucks and is unentertaining. I would rather see Ryder or Bo Dallas get the time he is getting.

Kevin Nash had a couple of bad gimmicks, remember OZ, one of my favorites was One Man Gang transforming into Akeem, the African Dream

[TROY]

Kevin Nash had a couple of bad gimmicks, remember OZ, one of my favorites was One Man Gang transforming into Akeem, the African Dream

Yeah I believe Nash's first appearance on wrestling he was named Dirt as part of the Master Blasters. He definitely had some shit gimmicks, I started to take notice of him when he was Vinnie Vegas, he did and excellent job with a lame ass character and I could tell there was something there. One Man Gang was awesome, and at first I thought Akeem was stupid as all get out but Gang along with Slick really made it all work.

[Grayson]

Kevin Nash had a couple of bad gimmicks, remember OZ, one of my favorites was One Man Gang transforming into Akeem, the African Dream

Not to take anything away from Kevin Nash but he definitely got lucky on two fronts. He had friends in the right places and he was a big guy in Vince McMahon's WWE. If Vince McMahon loves one thing, it's big guys.