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The Random Chat Thread: we come in peace...

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User avatar

RobThompson

cheese

Postby RobThompson » Sat Jun 16, 2018 5:03 am

uz000 wrote:That is the sixth #1 issue of Thor that Jason Aaron has written (though one is a Secret Wars mini). Completely ridiculous.

I'd be tempted to give his Thor run a go, but the constant renumbering and the bit in the middle where Thor is suddenly a woman because "forced diversity" just makes it unappealing. If the God of Thunder mantel was vacant then making Thor a woman would have been ok (just like the Ms Marvel title wasn't being used and Kamala was able to use it), instead it was part of a marketing campaign where many Marvel characters were suddenly diversified to see what sticks. It's about as pathetic as the constant renumbering.

A real shame, because I like Jason Aaron and I like Thor, but Marvel's antics just put me off.

All this shenanigans has been a real indictment against the current state of the industry.
User avatar

jephd

Swedish Pinata of Death

Postby jephd » Sat Jun 16, 2018 5:11 am

6 number 0nes is ridiculous but a 6 plus year run on a character where everything, including -especially- JaneThor, is well thought out and continuously building to a climax has to be applauded. Aaron has consistently knocked it out the park. I look forward to his run sitting on my shelf in omnibus next to Walt Simonsons run and Gillens JiM.
User avatar

uz000

Great Scott!!!

Postby uz000 » Sat Jun 16, 2018 5:16 am

Neurotic Moose wrote:I'm waiting until the whole thing is complete and they hopefully have some kind of omnibus of his whole run on the character before I give it a go, from what parts I did read, and parts I know from tie ins with other books, Jane becoming Thor was actually done pretty well, and Aaron came up with natural, interesting reasons for things to play out the way they did. They also didn't just jettison Thor, the events surrounding him becoming unworthy and Jane's cancer and being slowly killed by being Thor were long running plot points. All the stuff you're complaining about has to do with Marvel's dumbass marketing department instead of anything to actually do with what was on the page, and is an alarming bit of double standards considering they were mixing and matching characters to try to improve sales basically since before I was born, but now it's an issue because the replacements are women and POC's? Where was this sort of hand wringing when Bendis replaced all of the Avengers with supervillains?



Are you kidding? Everyone has been up in arms about everything Bendis has ever done.

Pretending that people are just in arms about this latest crap marketing stunt from Marvel, because POC/Female is just down right delusional. We've been up in arms about all there shit marketing since internet comic websites began (so about 1990).
User avatar

Dr. Hackenbush

FROGMAN

Postby Dr. Hackenbush » Sat Jun 16, 2018 5:26 am

Rich little American kids telling everybody else that everywhere in the world were you have money to buy video games you also have fast-speed internet connections that make "always online" no problem at all.

And then dismissing every proof to the contrary based on their own "experiences."

That's not even anecdotal evidence, this is just ridiculous.
User avatar

Dr. Hackenbush

FROGMAN

Postby Dr. Hackenbush » Sat Jun 16, 2018 6:03 am

Neurotic Moose wrote:I'm waiting until the whole thing is complete and they hopefully have some kind of omnibus of his whole run on the character before I give it a go, from what parts I did read, and parts I know from tie ins with other books, Jane becoming Thor was actually done pretty well, and Aaron came up with natural, interesting reasons for things to play out the way they did. They also didn't just jettison Thor, the events surrounding him becoming unworthy and Jane's cancer and being slowly killed by being Thor were long running plot points. All the stuff you're complaining about has to do with Marvel's dumbass marketing department instead of anything to actually do with what was on the page, and is an alarming bit of double standards considering they were mixing and matching characters to try to improve sales basically since before I was born, but now it's an issue because the replacements are women and POC's? Where was this sort of hand wringing when Bendis replaced all of the Avengers with supervillains?



Dude, do you seriously want to make the assumption that UZ position has anything to do with the replacements being poc and/or women? I know the way you handle discussions, but even for you, this seems extreme.

People have always been critical when Marvel forcefully changed too many heroes and books at once, especially many of Bendis* actions with replacing heroes, writing heroes completely OOC and practically ruining characters like Sentry.
There are always protests when characters are being replaced, when changes are too massive, and of course that multiplies when the changes occur on multiple characters at the same time.

And still, there actually is a difference between this and what happened back when Thor, Iron Man and all the others were changed.
It was a forced attempt to diversify and progress the cast of characters, which would have been a completely positive thing if it had occurred as a natural and organic progression AND NOT out of an editorial directive.
Even if you are completely fine with the nature of the changes, the way it had been forced on everybody and made it seem like a lecture on political correctness, would be repulsive for many as it fe. was for me.

I have no problem with writers showing their political and ideological position in their work, as long as it doesn't feel preachy and doesn't influence my enjoyment of the story. Which is why Willingham's politics and his clear pro-gun stance never were a problem in Fables, because it never influenced the story negatively and why otoh even comics promoting my own positions will feel jarring and annoying if they preach down to me or why I just can't read any Mike Baron comics out of Badger and Nexus anymore.

I think that Marvel's actions back then felt like that for many people who otherwise wouldn't have opposed any of those changes and the way Marvel later laid the blame on their readers supports my pov.

Also, even if everything was well done and naturally progressed out of Aaron's character arcs, the timing would of course lead people to associate it with all the other forced changes.
User avatar

uz000

Great Scott!!!

Postby uz000 » Sat Jun 16, 2018 6:21 am

Dr. Hackenbush wrote:

Dude, do you seriously want to make the assumption that UZ position has anything to do with the replacements being poc and/or women? I know the way you handle discussions, but even for you, this seems extreme.



Yes, especially when you consider I've been singing the praises of Ms Marvel every month for the last two years on this thread. I also spoke very highly of the Spider-Gwen when it first came out, those first 12 or so issues are fantastic, it dipped after the Harry Osborne arc.

NM's argument is just nonsense.
User avatar

jephd

Swedish Pinata of Death

Postby jephd » Sat Jun 16, 2018 7:13 am

Dr. Hackenbush wrote:

Dude, do you seriously want to make the assumption that UZ position has anything to do with the replacements being poc and/or women? I know the way you handle discussions, but even for you, this seems extreme.

People have always been critical if Marvel forcefully changed too many heroes and books at once, especially many of Bendis actions with replacing heroes, writing heroes completely OOC and practically ruining characters like Sentry.
There are always protests when characters are being replaced, when changes are too massive, and of course that multiplies when the changes occur on multiple characters at the same time.

And still, there actually is a difference between this and what happened back when Thor, Iron Man and all the others were changed.
It was a forced attempt to diversify and progress the cast of characters, which would have been a completely positive thing if it had occurred as a natural and organic progression AND NOT out of an editorial directive.
Even if you are completely fine with the nature of the changes, the way it had been forced on everybody and made it seem like a lecture on political correctness, would be repulsive for many as it fe. was for me.

I have no problem with writers showing their political and ideological position in their work, as long as it doesn't feel preachy and doesn't influence my enjoyment of the story. Which is why Willingham's politics and his clear pro-gun stance never were a problem in Fables, because it never influenced the story negatively and why otoh even comics promoting my own positions will feel jarring and annoying if they preach down to me or why I just can't read any Mike Baron comics out of Badger and Nexus anymore.

I think that Marvel's actions back then felt like that for many people who otherwise wouldn't have opposed any of those changes and the way Marvel later laid the blame on their readers supports my pov.

Also, even if everything was well done and naturally progressed out of Aaron's character arcs, the timing would of course lead people to associate it with all the other forced changes.


Honestly I'm not convinced this "editorial directive" existed. Marvel (and dc)editorial can't usually organise themselves to get events out smoothly let alone agree on a unifying theme across 3 major titles. I genuinely think it was more a case of the stories happening and David Gabriel and His marketing team jumping on it without thinking. "Look how progressive we are girls and minorities can be heroes too" was guaranteed to piss off everybody.
User avatar

Dr. Hackenbush

FROGMAN

Postby Dr. Hackenbush » Sat Jun 16, 2018 7:32 am

uz000 wrote:
Yes, especially when you consider I've been singing the praises of Ms Marvel every month for the last two years on this thread. I also spoke very highly of the Spider-Gwen when it first came out, those first 12 or so issues are fantastic, it dipped after the Harry Osborne arc.

NM's argument is just nonsense.



Yeah, I mean I go out of my way to look for interesting books with female leads from the small indie publishers in previews, risking again and again to get unfinished books, because I like stories starring them.
I'm checking out each new attempt at a Black Widow or She-Hulk series, buy Wonder Woman whenever the writer doesn't suck, Zatanna, Birds of Prey, Harley Quinn, Mockingbird all books I loved/love but even to me it felt too constructed, too unnatural and definitely too much in too short a time.
User avatar

Dr. Hackenbush

FROGMAN

Postby Dr. Hackenbush » Sat Jun 16, 2018 7:35 am

I mean, what would be funny would be if some spell rule 63'd all Marvel heroes and then some characters stayed in the new genders for longer, you could even have some grow to realize they feel more comfortable there, like in Gail Simone's Image series Crosswind.

That would be interesting and could be an advocate for accepting transpeople.
Of course you would have to think hard about whom to choose for something like that and I admit a natural target doesn't come to mind right now, but that would be something I could get behind.
User avatar

Dr. Hackenbush

FROGMAN

Postby Dr. Hackenbush » Sat Jun 16, 2018 7:38 am

jephd wrote:
Honestly I'm not convinced this "editorial directive" existed. Marvel (and dc)editorial can't usually organise themselves to get events out smoothly let alone agree on a unifying theme across 3 major titles. I genuinely think it was more a case of the stories happening and David Gabriel and His marketing team jumping on it without thinking. "Look how progressive we are girls and minorities can be heroes too" was guaranteed to piss off everybody.



No way did they not plan to replace both Thor and Iron Man with female characters, have Cap become a POC AND start several new books with female leads over such a short time.
Something as massive and orchestrated does not happen coincidentally.
User avatar

Dr. Hackenbush

FROGMAN

Postby Dr. Hackenbush » Sat Jun 16, 2018 7:58 am

Image
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Rebirth NoctourneM

Rain Partier

Postby Rebirth NoctourneM » Sat Jun 16, 2018 7:59 am

jephd wrote:6 number 0nes is ridiculous but a 6 plus year run on a character where everything, including -especially- JaneThor, is well thought out and continuously building to a climax has to be applauded. Aaron has consistently knocked it out the park. I look forward to his run sitting on my shelf in omnibus next to Walt Simonsons run and Gillens JiM.


Then, if you don't mind me asking how didJane get to the moon?
User avatar

Dr. Hackenbush

FROGMAN

Postby Dr. Hackenbush » Sat Jun 16, 2018 8:08 am

Image
User avatar

Dr. Hackenbush

FROGMAN

Postby Dr. Hackenbush » Sat Jun 16, 2018 8:10 am

Rebirth NoctourneM wrote:
Then, if you don't mind me asking how didJane get to the moon?



Nazi Ufos?

Image
User avatar

jephd

Swedish Pinata of Death

Postby jephd » Sat Jun 16, 2018 8:14 am

Rebirth NoctourneM wrote:
Then, if you don't mind me asking how didJane get to the moon?

She was already established on asgardia as midgards representative on the council of realms. Crowds of asgardians followed Thor and Odin to the blue area to watch them try and pick it up. She could easily have followed them and hung back til they left.
I'd have to check but it was certainly suggested that Freya the all-mother was influential in it.

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