The Outhouse - The Greatest Comic Book Forum

by **Rockman** » Mon Aug 22, 2011 2:24 pm

Punchy your dismissal of endings is a little extreme.

Can you honestly say that endings aren't a crucial part to any body of fiction? I understand if it isn't your favorite part of a story, but it is absolutely necessary to a successful narrative work to have an ending.

I know this series won't have a happy ending. But I'm hoping for at least a stark to rule in winterfel by the end.

by **PDH** » Mon Aug 22, 2011 2:36 pm

He probably won't die before finishing the series, anyway. Let's be optimistic! :-D

by **Punchy** » Mon Aug 22, 2011 4:01 pm

Rockman wrote:Punchy your dismissal of endings is a little extreme.

Can you honestly say that endings aren't a crucial part to any body of fiction? I understand if it isn't your favorite part of a story, but it is absolutely necessary to a successful narrative work to have an ending.

I know this series won't have a happy ending. But I'm hoping for at least a stark to rule in winterfel by the end.

I don't think endings are crucial, because they are only 5% of a story when compared to the 90% which is the middle (the other 5% is the beginning). From where I sit, it is the journey that is important, not the destination. Being disappointed in the last episode of LOST does not negate the 120 previous episodes. If GRRM were to die tomorrow, does that mean all the enjoyment we've gotten from the 5 books was pointless? I read books for pleasure, for the experience, not to rush towards an ending.

On this site we all read (or have read) mainstream superhero comics, a genre which has no endings and never will, the story of Superman will never end (and is often referred to as 'the never-ending battle'. Does that mean there's no point reading Superman?

And the thing is, with long-running narratives like these, the endings always cause bitching even when they do come. Stephen King finished The Dark Tower, but there are loads of fans who say they hate the ending and would have preferred for him to leave it.

I just don't agree that a great story needs an ending, look at HBO's Deadwood, that has no proper ending, but it's still an all-time classic TV show.

by **Rockman** » Mon Aug 22, 2011 4:24 pm

Punchy wrote:
I don't think endings are crucial, because they are only 5% of a story when compared to the 90% which is the middle (the other 5% is the beginning). From where I sit, it is the journey that is important, not the destination. Being disappointed in the last episode of LOST does not negate the 120 previous episodes. If GRRM were to die tomorrow, does that mean all the enjoyment we've gotten from the 5 books was pointless? I read books for pleasure, for the experience, not to rush towards an ending.

On this site we all read (or have read) mainstream superhero comics, a genre which has no endings and never will, the story of Superman will never end (and is often referred to as 'the never-ending battle'. Does that mean there's no point reading Superman?

And the thing is, with long-running narratives like these, the endings always cause bitching even when they do come. Stephen King finished The Dark Tower, but there are loads of fans who say they hate the ending and would have preferred for him to leave it.

I just don't agree that a great story needs an ending, look at HBO's Deadwood, that has no proper ending, but it's still an all-time classic TV show.

I would not be satisfyed if all I got out of this story was

[Reveal] Spoiler: Click to Expand

Davos in Limbo, Jon Snow dead or dying, Stannis' fate unknown, Dany's fate unknown, Grff and the Prince just chilling at Griffin's roost etc...

All Journey's should have an end point. Sure those aren't always satisfying to every reader but a good story has an ending.

You mention comic books. Well each arc is its own story, we get a conclusion to those events, the character arcs just never conclude (which is why I'm sick of comic books all around).

Imagine in Lord of the Rings we get Frodo trapped in mount doom, the armies of Sauron encircling our heroes for one last battle and then.... fade to black ala sopranos. It's a cheat and it would totally negate everything that came before it.

That doesn't mean I can't judge a work in parts, some works have great middle parts, seasons, begginnings, endings etc... but have something that doesn't work elsewhere.

by **AaronW** » Mon Aug 22, 2011 10:48 pm

One of the reasons comics largely suck as a storytelling medium is the never ending format. A good ending is crucial to a good story.

by **ReturnoftheMack** » Mon Aug 22, 2011 10:53 pm

Using all that Tolkien example doesn't work. Only uber fans read that stuff.

The trilogy would not be anything without an ending.

by **Lord Simian** » Mon Aug 22, 2011 11:05 pm

Rusty Kuntz wrote:Using all that Tolkien example doesn't work. Only uber fans read that stuff.

The trilogy would not be anything without an ending.

He has a point. TONS of people read the trilogy. Tons will read the Hobbit when the films open. 95 percent of those people will never even read the Silmarillion, let alone any of the unfinished stuff...

by **xaraan** » Mon Aug 22, 2011 11:12 pm

Lord Simian wrote:
He has a point. TONS of people read the trilogy. Tons will read the Hobbit when the films open. 95 percent of those people will never even read the Silmarillion, let alone any of the unfinished stuff...

Yea, but look at something like Wheel of Time. Sanderson has given the series new legs.

by **Lord Simian** » Mon Aug 22, 2011 11:31 pm

xaraan wrote:

Yea, but look at something like Wheel of Time. Sanderson has given the series new legs.

Oh, I know. I was agreeing with Xaraan, and for the record, the Sanderson books aren't as good, obviously. But I am MUCH happier that he is doing them than I would be if Harriet MacDougal, Jordan's widow and editor, had decided to leave it unfinished.

by **xaraan** » Tue Aug 23, 2011 12:18 am

I feel about Jordan the same way I'm getting about Martin. I wan them finished by the original author, but wish the authors still wrote like they did in their earlier work. I loved the first three of Martin, thought the last two were just ok. That's how it went for Jordan. I loved the first five or so, then interest waned with each book and by eight I didn't even keep reading. I still have them all, one day I'll dive back in I guess. But I'm happier with Sanderson on them than Jordan finishing them if he wrote them as the last few he did. Now if he was righting them as the first several novels I'd love that.

by **Rockman** » Tue Aug 23, 2011 1:12 am

I know everyone likes the third book a lot, and I did too. But it was just too darn long. Sometimes you just have to sacrifice some of the less important stuff to help the story not be so dang huge.

by **Zero** » Tue Aug 23, 2011 4:18 am

In the UK it was split into two just after the part where Jon Snow and Bran narrowly miss each other and I thought it worked well. Gave me time to read something less 'swords and fucking' in between.

by **Punchy** » Tue Aug 23, 2011 4:45 am

http://www.avclub.com/articles/the-perils-and-pleasures-of-longrunning-fantasy-se,60769/

Very interesting article on this topic of long-running narratives and endings and wanting the writer to hurry up.

by **AaronW** » Tue Aug 23, 2011 12:35 pm

Rockman wrote:I know everyone likes the third book a lot, and I did too. But it was just too darn long. Sometimes you just have to sacrifice some of the less important stuff to help the story not be so dang huge.

Yeah, Storm of Swords was too long. I think he could have told just as effective story if he had trimmed stuff. But it was still a great book, just not as good as the first two.