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The Star Trek Thread

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Strict31

Rain Partier

Postby Strict31 » Sat Mar 03, 2012 10:06 pm

Amoebas wrote:I have that book too and it does say "born in 2233 in Iowa on planet Earth" (with reference to Star Trek IV for the Iowa part). But in the actual movie Star Trek IV he says he "from Iowa" not "born" there, so there was some creative license from the books writers.


Michael and Denise Okuda. With content from Doug Drexler, Robert Justman. These are all people who have not only worked on Star Trek's various incarnations, but who have been instrumental in creating its many trapping and information. If you wish to cast any doubt on the credentials and authority of these people, feel free. If you're going to say that anything they've catalogued in this book is "creative license," then you might as well say that Gene Roddenberry's entire work is nothing but creative license.

I mean, it's all just made up data. But after a certain point, if you remain dubious about the validity of a source, that's just an obstacle I cannot cross with you.

It's a little bit like saying, "Well, what does Stephen Hawking know about black holes? He's never actually fallen into one!"

Amoebas wrote:But how would a cadet be privy to Khan's exile on Ceta Alpha V when it appears no Starfleet record was ever entered (else Terrel would have known Khan was in the Ceta Alpha system).
Khan and his boys took over the entire ship. I'd expect there to be some scuttlebutt on board about what happened.

But this is splitting hairs. We both accept the possibility that Chekov was on the ship at the time. We have no indication that Khan's relocation is any sort of a secret. I mean, there are lots of things one might look up in an encyclopedia or internet database which, nonetheless, aren't common knowledge. Like Chekov's birthdate, for example. It ain't classified knowledge, but Orci and Kurtzmann were unaware of it.


Amoebas wrote:Funny how Abrams seems to say "timeline" a lot then...


Okay. But what you call "funny" I call "layman's speech."

It is a reality in which different events occurred from another reality. You can call it anything from "parallel universe" to "bob", and it will still be a different universe. Schrodinger and his cat rather inadvertently covered this.

"Here’s the thing… I think the key to that was, first of all, it was one of those things that not everyone even cares about or understands the timeline of it all. The notion that when this one character, Nero, arrives in his ship, that basically the timeline is altered at that moment, so everything forward is essentially an alternative timeline. That is not to say that everything that happened in The Original Series doesn’t exist. I think, as a fan of movies and shows, if someone told me the beloved thing for me was gone, I would be upset. But we didn’t do that. We’re not saying that what happened in that original series wasn’t good, true, valid, righteous and real. Let people embrace that. We’re not rejecting that. That, to me, would have been the big mistake. We’re simply saying that, “At this moment, the very first scene in the first movie, everything that people knew of Star Trek splits off into now another timeline."


To this, I will merely point to what PDH stated:
PDH wrote:The makers of the film INTENDED for there to be a single point of divergence but the movie that they made is not consistent with this, for example the ages of characters being different is something that can't be easily explained by Nero's actions, to put it mildly.

In other words, they made a film with plot holes.


Here's what I don't get from you. You're fine with these exact seven people having pretty much the exact same lives and end up serving on the Enterprise at the exact same time. Starfleet exists, Vulcans exists, so do Romulans, Klingons and if Uhura's roommate is who I think she is - Orionians. All this stuff exists and you're fine with that. But mention the Doomsday Machine or the Borg, Khan, etc and you're practically dismissive to the idea.


You're actually making an assumption that I'm fine with anything presented in the movie. I realize you may not remember or care about how much I argued with people about this movie when it came out. But if you are in any way familiar with that shit, this is an assumption you wouldn't make. Cat-Scratch probably remembers. Sdsichero probably remembers.

There's not much in the movie I didn't have a problem with that didn't involve explosions and Rachel Nichols' cleavage. But just because I don't feel like going back over all the shit I didn't like three years ago doesn't mean I'm okay with it. Besides...this response is already long enough...

Amoebas wrote:A more likely scenario is Spock alerts Starfleet where the Botany is. They get him and 'properly' exile them somewhere other than Ceta Alpha V. End of story. (And since nuKirk won't even meet Carol Marcus until the early 2260's (IF he ever meets her), it's unlikely David will ever exist.


*shrugs*
Likely or unlikely, Spock certainly can't say for sure. Which is my point.

Amoebas wrote:It's more likely Spock simply urges Starfleet engineers to make a better automated system. Good thing my point to this whole line of posts is that Spock SHOULD warn alert people of the inherent dangers coming there way, almost all of this would be avoided. If he DOESN'T alert them, then yeah, everyone is probably screwed.


Yep. A better system to protect against technology they never got to examine or even learn about. Because as soon as they got close enough to do so, all their shit broke. I'm sure that will be productive.

Amoebas wrote:In either my alternate timeline or your parallel universe, this is a different reality now and Spock can fuck with history all he wants.


No, he can't. The Federation doesn't work like that. You should know that. While there are many Starfleet officers who have broken their own rules throughout the centuries, they're breaking their own rules. Perhaps if Spock had evidence that, in a universe where a fuckton of different stuff has occurred, the same stuff might just spontaneously start happening, it would be different. But he has no idea if any of it will. He has no idea if what he shares may cause more harm than good. This is the whole point behind Temporal Investigations' rules. One altered variable will change the whole equation. And since you've watched Star Trek, I'm not sure how this is a concept you're unfamiliar with.

Hey, take a look at "The City on the Edge of Forever." Kirk and Spock had enough knowledge of past events to make the choice to allow Edith Keller to live or die. If she'd lived, it would have ushered in an era of American peace, which would have delayed America's entry into WW2. Which would have allowed Germany to complete its atomic bomb program. Which would have fucked the world in the ass. So, rather than interfere, they allowed her to die. And one of the most destructive conflicts known to man occurred, resulting in the deaths of hundreds of thousands of American soldiers.

Shit, this is before Temporal Investigations was even created, and Spock and Kirk are still following a policy of non-interference.

So...no, Amoebas...he really can't. Or rather, he knows that he shouldn't. It would be out of character and illogical to act upon incomplete data.

That's not to say Spock is above breaking some rules here and there. But usually when he does this, he's planned out everything to exacting detail. Like risking his career and life for Captain Pike by sending the ship to Talos IV. Spock had every single thing figured out in advance. He knew the risks would only hit him.

In this situation, he knows none of the values of any of the variables. He does not know what has changed and what hasn't across the entirety of the universe. And as I've proven, things in this universe have occured differently and independent of Nero's actions. If that had been the only variable factor, then he might have been able to go further back in time to stop Nero before he even shows up. As he and Kirk did with Bones in "City on the Edge of Forever."

But Chekov was still born several years "too early" in this universe. And Kirk was still born in space in this universe. These are random details that are different. How can he know what other random details are different?

Since they are...random...?

He might act to warn Starfleet about event X, but instead of occurring at location Y, it occurs at location Z. And he doesn't even know that event X will occur at all.

Amoebas wrote:I really have ventured into Strictland haven't I?) :-D


I wouldn't exactly say that, but yeah, it is abunch of long posts we're making here.
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Amoebas

Son of Stein

Postby Amoebas » Sat Mar 03, 2012 11:56 pm

Strict31 wrote:Michael and Denise Okuda. With content from Doug Drexler, Robert Justman. These are all people who have not only worked on Star Trek's various incarnations, but who have been instrumental in creating its many trapping and information. If you wish to cast any doubt on the credentials and authority of these people, feel free. If you're going to say that anything they've catalogued in this book is "creative license," then you might as well say that Gene Roddenberry's entire work is nothing but creative license.


Them typing the words "born in" doesn't make it fact. The fact is he's only said he's "from" Iowa, so yeah, it sure looks like creative licensing (or making an assumption into fact if you prefer).

Strict31 wrote: We have no indication that Khan's relocation is any sort of a secret.

If it wasn't a secret then somebody fucked up big time by not googling "Ceti Alpha" to have discovered Khan was there let alone that the the system was missing a whole planet.

Strict31 wrote:Okay. But what you call "funny" I call "layman's speech."

I didn't know Abrams was so sloppy when giving interviews then. Thanks for correcting me on that one :-D

Strict31 wrote:You're actually making an assumption that I'm fine with anything presented in the movie. I realize you may not remember or care about how much I argued with people about this movie when it came out. But if you are in any way familiar with that shit, this is an assumption you wouldn't make. Cat-Scratch probably remembers. Sdsichero probably remembers.


I started this whole string of posts with the words... "Joining late so I don't know if this has been discussed yet but..." So yes, I know nothing about your previous posts.

Strict31 wrote:Likely or unlikely, Spock certainly can't say for sure. Which is my point.

And your point is wrong imo. Spock certainly can say with a reasonable amount of certainty. Which is my point.

Strict31 wrote:Hey, take a look at "The City on the Edge of Forever." Kirk and Spock had enough knowledge of past events to make the choice to allow Edith Keller to live or die. If she'd lived, it would have ushered in an era of American peace, which would have delayed America's entry into WW2. Which would have allowed Germany to complete its atomic bomb program. Which would have fucked the world in the ass. So, rather than interfere, they allowed her to die. And one of the most destructive conflicts known to man occurred, resulting in the deaths of hundreds of thousands of American soldiers.

No debate to this, this makes perfect sense - as it was happening in their own timeline. But even you admit this is a different reality, so the rule doesn't apply here any more than it does in the Mirror Mirror Universe.

Strict31 wrote:So...no, Amoebas...he really can't. Or rather, he knows that he shouldn't. It would be out of character and illogical to act upon incomplete data.

And yet there was Spock Prime sending nuKirk & Scotty back to the Enterprise based on nothing but assumptions and incomplete data (this after giving Scotty the secret of transwarp teleporting). Good thing he was so illogical and out of character. :roll:

When faced with the choice of letting someone know that a killer probe is out there and will likely destroy the Earth in 2286, I'd think the needs of the many would demand only one logical answer.

So... yes, Strict... he really can. And should.

Strict31 wrote:And as I've proven, things in this universe have occured differently and independent of Nero's actions

You've proven that Chekov is the wrong age - besides that, not much else as I've offered logical explanations to everything else.

Strict31 wrote:He might act to warn Starfleet about event X, but instead of occurring at location Y, it occurs at location Z. And he doesn't even know that event X will occur at all.

Again, if these exact 7 people still line up in the exact same roles aboard the exact same ship (despite it's larger size) then logically, events X or Z have as great a likelihood of lining up as well. (and again I am only speaking of matters that were started before the Kelvin encounter (despite the aforementioned plot hole)).
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prozacman

Expert Post Whore

Postby prozacman » Sun Mar 04, 2012 2:39 pm

The biggest piece of evidence to prove that this is an alternate dimension and not an alternate time line is that the Department of Temporal Investigations didn't intervene in the events of this movie. You would think that this would be some thing the Enterprise J would have jurisdiction over.

That being said, the events and people existing in both universes are close enough to each other to warrant future Spock to make a list of important people and events to watch out for just to be on the safe side. Maybe put a sign on the Botany Bay that says Do Not Defrost :wink:
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Amoebas

Son of Stein

Postby Amoebas » Sun Mar 04, 2012 2:53 pm

prozacman wrote:The biggest piece of evidence to prove that this is an alternate dimension and not an alternate time line is that the Department of Temporal Investigations didn't intervene in the events of this movie. You would think that this would be some thing the Enterprise J would have jurisdiction over.

That being said, the events and people existing in both universes are close enough to each other to warrant future Spock to make a list of important people and events to watch out for just to be on the safe side. Maybe put a sign on the Botany Bay that says Do Not Defrost :wink:


Exactly.

And I was never a fan of the DTI. Mulder and Scully were a bit far fetched for me to take seriously (probably why "Watching the Clock" still sits unread on my shelf).
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sdsichero

2k11 Outhouse People's Champion

Postby sdsichero » Tue Mar 20, 2012 6:53 pm

Original 1960s Gold Key Star Trek Comics Available for Download for Free

For readers in the United States, the WOWIO website has the 1960s/1970s original Gold Key Star Trek comic books for download for free and legally.
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sdsichero

2k11 Outhouse People's Champion

Postby sdsichero » Tue Apr 03, 2012 6:26 pm

GNP Releases First Contact Extended CD Soundtrack
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Chesscub

WTF is this rank?

Postby Chesscub » Wed Apr 04, 2012 10:54 am



I hear the art in these is really good. May have to check out.. :shock:
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sdsichero

2k11 Outhouse People's Champion

Postby sdsichero » Thu Apr 05, 2012 7:57 pm

haha I wonder if he still has a crush on her...

President Obama Admits He is a Star Trek Fan

The photo was taken in late February, when Nichols visited the White House and later headed to NASA's Goddard Space Flight Center.

At the time of her visit, Nichols tweeted her excitement about meeting the president. In the past, Obama has revealed that he had a crush on Nichols as a kid, as she was one of the first black women to have a major role on a television series.

"I was honored to get a chance to meet with Pres Barack Obama today in the White House. He was as charming and handsome as I had expected," Nichols wrote. "Months ago Pres Obama was quoted as saying that he'd had a crush on me when he was younger. I asked about that & he proudly confirmed it! President Obama also confirmed for me that he was definitely a Trekker! How wonderful is that?!"


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sdsichero

2k11 Outhouse People's Champion

Postby sdsichero » Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:56 pm

Alex Ross Creating Art For Enterprise Model Kit

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sdsichero

2k11 Outhouse People's Champion

Postby sdsichero » Fri Apr 13, 2012 5:28 pm

A Life-Sized Starship Enterprise?

Yes, all of humanity's woes could've been wiped away if this wondrous project had gone ahead, but alas it was not to be. Gary Goddard recounts on The Goddard Group blog the project his design firm worked on in the early 1990s in an attempt to revitalize downtown Las Vegas. "It would create a new '8th Wonder of the World,'" he writes, "with an iconic monument that would take its place alongside other 'must see' monuments in the world. (You would be able to see this from the airplanes as they came for landing at the Vegas airport. It's that big.)"


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Strict31

Rain Partier

Postby Strict31 » Fri Apr 13, 2012 5:53 pm

It seems an inherently structurally unsound venture.

Especially considering the fact that, given the to-scale image alongside the ESB, the ship would literally be life-sized; namely 305 meters long. I just cannot imagine how the saucer and warp nacelles would be supported without utterly collapsing.

This ain't the 23rd century and we ain't got super-metals like tritanium and duranium or whatever the fuck the shit is called. We don't have structural integrity force fields, and real world science completely refuses to be fictional.

I can't imagine how it would have supported its own weight. But it would have been glorious...
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sdsichero

2k11 Outhouse People's Champion

Postby sdsichero » Fri Apr 13, 2012 7:16 pm

Strict31 wrote:we ain't got super-metals like tritanium and duranium or whatever the fuck the shit is called. We don't have structural integrity force fields


We don't? Image
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sdsichero

2k11 Outhouse People's Champion

Postby sdsichero » Tue Apr 17, 2012 7:00 pm

From the upcoming Star Trek (Abrams U) game...

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Timbales

Fisty McDigger

Postby Timbales » Tue Apr 17, 2012 8:02 pm

sdsichero wrote:haha I wonder if he still has a crush on her...

President Obama Admits He is a Star Trek Fan




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sdsichero

2k11 Outhouse People's Champion

Postby sdsichero » Tue Apr 17, 2012 8:16 pm

Timbales wrote:
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His mother was visiting him? :shock:

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