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The Star Wars: The Last Jedi thread (spoilers eventually)

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Mac E Tero

dINGO

Postby Mac E Tero » Sat Dec 16, 2017 3:48 pm

uz000 wrote:
I completely disagree.

The jokes were very well done.

Disney is in danger of ruining the episodes? Did you even see the prequels? TFA and TLJ are must much better than the prequels.

Bring back Hayden Christiansen? Again, did you even see the prequels?

What TLJ has going for it is a very strong attempt to take the story away from the Skywalker family and make the Force something that manifests itself randomly among different people from generation to generation. The worse thing the could have done is just continue the Skywalker dynasty, that would have been fanfic.

The problem is quite simply that while it is worthwhile to expand the story away from the old characters they have done it by belittling the old guard: Leia and Han are failed parents, Luke is a failed Jedi master. This is why so many fans are upset and quite rightly so. Especially when Mark Hamill pretty much stole the entire movie. Hard to see any of the new cast being so damn cool as Hamill, who was way better than Ford in TFA.

Again, what’s the point without a strong theme or following a specific group of characters, as set up by six previous movies? Leia, Vader, and Tarkin were in Rogue One why not mark that movie as an “Episode”? The prequels maintained a thread that flowed into the OT. That thread is being cut. The Skywalker Dynasty is the “Episodes”. The Skywalker Dynasty is not the Star Wars franchise. What I’m talking about here is largely a packaging concern not a quality one so cracks about the prequels don’t apply.

Agree about that problem. Rogue One should have proved that Disney doesn’t need to harness the OT to push the new guard. But they seem to think they need to and to bring in the millennials that means belittling the OT characters.

Mac E Tero

dINGO

Postby Mac E Tero » Sat Dec 16, 2017 4:19 pm

uz000 wrote:
I disagree with this as well ;)

In TLJ Finn, Rose & Poe are directly responsible for getting the rebels almost completely wiped out. Finn and Rose met DJ who ultimately sold them out and told the FO about Haldo's escape plan.

There has never been a SW film where the good guys completely messed up.

There has never been a SW film were the good guys get such a beating. All that is left is the survivors on the Falcon.

There has never been a SW film which has a nobody as the most powerful Force user in the galaxy instead of a Skywalker.

This film has taken the franchise into a new direction.

Agreed. Leia slapped some sense into Poe but it seems to have taken a little time to sink in. Finn and Rose ended up bringing in any old code breaker they could find. Not the one they were told to. (I don’t remember if they blabbed the secret plan to DJ or if DJ saw the shuttles on his own) Also, who the hell just parks on the beach during a secret mission? Poe’s plan could have worked if not for the half assing on the failed stormtrooper’s part.

Disagree. The Princess knew she was being tracked by a planet blasting space station and she goes to the secret rebel base anyway. Dummy. That almost got the Rebellion wiped out. “Her Highness”

Disagree. Yoda is not a Skywalker. The Emperor is not a Skywalker. Mace is not a Skywalker.
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uz000

Swedish Pinata of Death

Postby uz000 » Sat Dec 16, 2017 4:30 pm

Mac E Tero wrote:Again, what’s the point without a strong theme or following a specific group of characters, as set up by six previous movies? Leia, Vader, and Tarkin were in Rogue One why not mark that movie as an “Episode”? The prequels maintained a thread that flowed into the OT. That thread is being cut. The Skywalker Dynasty is the “Episodes”. The Skywalker Dynasty is not the Star Wars franchise. What I’m talking about here is largely a packaging concern not a quality one so cracks about the prequels don’t apply.

Agree about that problem. Rogue One should have proved that Disney doesn’t need to harness the OT to push the new guard. But they seem to think they need to and to bring in the millennials that means belittling the OT characters.



The strong theme would be rebels banding together to fight fascist dictatorships.

Just because the last 6 episodes have concentrated on the Skywalkers it doesn't mean the next trilogy has to follow suit. I'm glad they are shifting away from the Skywalkers. I'm just not glad this is the way they have done it.

What you describe as "The Skywalker Dynasty" sounds like the worst sort of fanfic.
User avatar

uz000

Swedish Pinata of Death

Postby uz000 » Sat Dec 16, 2017 4:36 pm

Mac E Tero wrote:
Disagree. The Princess knew she was being tracked by a planet blasting space station and she goes to the secret rebel base anyway. Dummy. That almost got the Rebellion wiped out. “Her Highness”



How does this disagree with any of my points? Leia's actions don't get the Rebels wiped out, so nowhere near as bad as Poe and finn in TLJ. In fact she got plans to the rebels and they recorded their biggest ever military victory at that point.

Mac E Tero wrote:
Disagree. Yoda is not a Skywalker. The Emperor is not a Skywalker. Mace is not a Skywalker.


Ok fair point. What I should have said is we've never had a non-Skywalker be the main protagaonist in a trilogy.
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HNutz

Rain Partier

Postby HNutz » Sat Dec 16, 2017 5:46 pm

HNutz wrote:Just got finished watching it.

Felt like the "greatest hits" of Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi.


uz000 wrote:I disagree with this as well ;)

In TLJ Finn, Rose & Poe are directly responsible for getting the rebels almost completely wiped out. Finn and Rose met DJ who ultimately sold them out and told the FO about Haldo's escape plan.

There has never been a SW film where the good guys completely messed up.

There has never been a SW film were the good guys get such a beating. All that is left is the survivors on the Falcon.

There has never been a SW film which has a nobody as the most powerful Force user in the galaxy instead of a Skywalker.

This film has taken the franchise into a new direction.


But how they got there?

All scenes we've seen before.

Like Rey going into the Dark side cave and seeing a reflection of herself? Luke did the same in the middle of Empire.

The throne room scene where the Big Bad confronted the protagonist (who surrendered themselves, hoping to turn the guy in the mask), took off their cuffs and showed them Rebel ships getting destroyed before the guy in the mask turned on the Big Bad and killed them? It's the end of Jedi.

Battle on a white, (snow covered?) planet where the bad guys marched towards the Rebel base with AT-ATs and the good guys were trying to retreat? It's the beginning of Empire.

Millennium Falcon outflying TIE Fighters in a chase through a "planet"? End of Jedi.

Good guy takes control of a AT-ST and firing on the Empire? End of Jedi.

"Badass" masked character doing very little before falling to their death? That's Boba Fett's entire arc in Empire/Jedi.

Luke teaching Rey was very reminiscent of how Yoda taught him (but that one kinda makes sense).

(And too much time shown on one particular planet, compete with a race scene? Kinda like Episode I, but that might just be me.)

Mac E Tero

dINGO

Postby Mac E Tero » Sat Dec 16, 2017 7:07 pm

uz000 wrote:

The strong theme would be rebels banding together to fight fascist dictatorships.

Just because the last 6 episodes have concentrated on the Skywalkers it doesn't mean the next trilogy has to follow suit. I'm glad they are shifting away from the Skywalkers. I'm just not glad this is the way they have done it.

What you describe as "The Skywalker Dynasty" sounds like the worst sort of fanfic.

Except that’s not the theme Lucas focused on. Such a theme would focus less on characters and more on strategy and politics. IMO.

Yeah they’re not transitioning very well.

What I described was definitely fan fic. But if you think it’s the worst then I’m very happy you have not read the things I have read.

zryson

YOU WILL NEED A NURSE

Postby zryson » Sat Dec 16, 2017 7:11 pm

Final numbers for TLJ are bigger than anticipated

Box Office: ‘Star Wars: The Last Jedi’ Rockets to $215 Million Opening Weekend
http://variety.com/2017/film/box-office ... 202643146/

Mac E Tero

dINGO

Postby Mac E Tero » Sat Dec 16, 2017 8:34 pm

uz000 wrote:
How does this disagree with any of my points? Leia's actions don't get the Rebels wiped out, so nowhere near as bad as Poe and finn in TLJ. In fact she got plans to the rebels and they recorded their biggest ever military victory at that point.



Ok fair point. What I should have said is we've never had a non-Skywalker be the main protagaonist in a trilogy.

“completely messed up” (should have bolded the part I was referring to) She messed up and Porkins died. So did Gold Leader. I’m not sure if that Asian looking rebel made it back. If Luke had missed or was a couple of seconds late it would have wiped out the Rebellion. Porkins.

I considered “such a beating” as a separate point noting the condition of the Resistance/Rebellion. If I misunderstood and it was one point then Leia’s mess up lacks the body count/consequences of Finn and Rose’s.

Here’s some fanfic I wrote with you in mind: Leia asked Han to drop her and R2 off and draw the Deathstar to a particular place suitable for an ambush. She would then find a secure transport to the rebels, have the plans analyzed and then the rebels would attack the Deathstar in the ambush spot. But Han said “Tracking? Not this ship, sister”, decided to hold her hostage and wouldn’t let her out of his sight until he got his reward.

Do I get a 2/5 at least?
User avatar

uz000

Swedish Pinata of Death

Postby uz000 » Sun Dec 17, 2017 3:58 am

HNutz wrote:
But how they got there?

All scenes we've seen before.

Like Rey going into the Dark side cave and seeing a reflection of herself? Luke did the same in the middle of Empire.

The throne room scene where the Big Bad confronted the protagonist (who surrendered themselves, hoping to turn the guy in the mask), took off their cuffs and showed them Rebel ships getting destroyed before the guy in the mask turned on the Big Bad and killed them? It's the end of Jedi.



ok, but it plays out completely differently to Jedi.
HNutz wrote:

Battle on a white, (snow covered?) planet where the bad guys marched towards the Rebel base with AT-ATs and the good guys were trying to retreat? It's the beginning of Empire.



Salt, I think. Again it play out completely differently to Empire.

HNutz wrote:Millennium Falcon outflying TIE Fighters in a chase through a "planet"? End of Jedi.

Good guy takes control of a AT-ST and firing on the Empire? End of Jedi.


Falcon flying against Tie-fighters is something you need to come to terms with will be in all SW films going forwards.

You are right about the good guy takes control of a AT-ST, but no big deal to me, such a minor thing.

HNutz wrote:"Badass" masked character doing very little before falling to their death? That's Boba Fett's entire arc in Empire/Jedi.

Luke teaching Rey was very reminiscent of how Yoda taught him (but that one kinda makes sense).

(And too much time shown on one particular planet, compete with a race scene? Kinda like Episode I, but that might just be me.)


I'll give you Phasma was very Fett.

I thought the time spent on the gambling planet was completely different to other SW films.

Sure Luke teaching Rey was like Empire, but really this cannot be a cause of criticism. We knew from the end of TFA this was going to happen. However, in this case it was injected with lots of comedy which really worked. Also Yoda wasn't a failed master that Luke was, so again the scenes played out differently.

My basic point is while there were scene which look similar to previous SW films, everything played out differently. It looks on the surface similar, but when you dig deep they twisted everything around.
User avatar

uz000

Swedish Pinata of Death

Postby uz000 » Sun Dec 17, 2017 4:08 am

Mac E Tero wrote:“completely messed up” (should have bolded the part I was referring to) She messed up and Porkins died. So did Gold Leader. I’m not sure if that Asian looking rebel made it back. If Luke had missed or was a couple of seconds late it would have wiped out the Rebellion. Porkins.

I considered “such a beating” as a separate point noting the condition of the Resistance/Rebellion. If I misunderstood and it was one point then Leia’s mess up lacks the body count/consequences of Finn and Rose’s.



I think you are clutching at straws when you describe the rebels destroying the Death Star in ANH as them taking "such a beating". The rebels won that fight. They lost two fighter squadrons and destroyed the most powerful weapon in the galaxy. There base was intact.

In TLJ the entire rebel forces except the falcon are destroyed.

So my original points about TLJ which were "There has never been a SW film where the good guys completely messed up" & "There has never been a SW film were the good guys get such a beating" still hold. The idea that the end of ANH is comparable to this is just not true.

Mac E Tero wrote:Here’s some fanfic I wrote with you in mind: Leia asked Han to drop her and R2 off and draw the Deathstar to a particular place suitable for an ambush. She would then find a secure transport to the rebels, have the plans analyzed and then the rebels would attack the Deathstar in the ambush spot. But Han said “Tracking? Not this ship, sister”, decided to hold her hostage and wouldn’t let her out of his sight until he got his reward.

Do I get a 2/5 at least?


2.2/5, you tried very hard. :wink:

Mac E Tero

dINGO

Postby Mac E Tero » Sun Dec 17, 2017 6:16 am

uz000 wrote:
I think you are clutching at straws when you describe the rebels destroying the Death Star in ANH as them taking "such a beating". The rebels won that fight. They lost two fighter squadrons and destroyed the most powerful weapon in the galaxy. There base was intact.

In TLJ the entire rebel forces except the falcon are destroyed.

So my original points about TLJ which were "There has never been a SW film where the good guys completely messed up" & "There has never been a SW film were the good guys get such a beating" still hold. The idea that the end of ANH is comparable to this is just not true.



2.2/5, you tried very hard. :wink:

Here’s how it was formatted:
There has never been a SW film where the good guys completely messed up.

There has never been a SW film were the good guys get such a beating. All that is left is the survivors on the Falcon.

There was a double space and no connective “&” which is why I considered them separate. Leaving any “complete mess up” by a good guy to be with or without disastrous consequences. I agree the Resistance took their biggest beating in TLJ and didn’t mean to address it at all.

The double space is also why I’m not grasping at straws or describing Yavin as “such a beating”, just a complete mess up. If not for the virtue of a scoundrel, the cowardice of a fighter pilot, the guidance of a dead man, and the patience of a reckless youth it sure woulda been such a beating. But you’ve since clarified that they aren’t separate this is all for nothing.

Which is too bad because I was working on a shower scene that woulda gotten me a solid 3/5. There was lathering, rinsing, and some leave in conditioner. Chewie ends up with Farrah hair.
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OneWhoIsAll

Expert Post Whore

Postby OneWhoIsAll » Sun Dec 17, 2017 7:29 am

Keep on mind that in Empire, the Rebels took a beating in the battle of Hoth.

They lost a base, one of many( The Empire been chasing them down from base to base ever since the battle of the death star)
User avatar

uz000

Swedish Pinata of Death

Postby uz000 » Sun Dec 17, 2017 9:07 am

Mac E Tero wrote:Here’s how it was formatted:

There was a double space and no connective “&” which is why I considered them separate. Leaving any “complete mess up” by a good guy to be with or without disastrous consequences. I agree the Resistance took their biggest beating in TLJ and didn’t mean to address it at all.

The double space is also why I’m not grasping at straws or describing Yavin as “such a beating”, just a complete mess up. If not for the virtue of a scoundrel, the cowardice of a fighter pilot, the guidance of a dead man, and the patience of a reckless youth it sure woulda been such a beating. But you’ve since clarified that they aren’t separate this is all for nothing.

Which is too bad because I was working on a shower scene that woulda gotten me a solid 3/5. There was lathering, rinsing, and some leave in conditioner. Chewie ends up with Farrah hair.


Wait a shower scene where we find Luke is still alive? Because that is a solid 3.9/5. I mean people will complain that it is total Dallas rip off, but most viewers are way too young to remember.
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Rebirth NoctourneM

Rain Partier

Postby Rebirth NoctourneM » Sun Dec 17, 2017 10:56 am

uz000 wrote:
Wait a shower scene where we find Luke is still alive? Because that is a solid 3.9/5. I mean people will complain that it is total Dallas rip off, but most viewers are way too young to remember.


Never!
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HNutz

Rain Partier

Postby HNutz » Sun Dec 17, 2017 1:23 pm

uz000 wrote:
ok, but it plays out completely differently to Jedi.


Salt, I think. Again it play out completely differently to Empire.



Falcon flying against Tie-fighters is something you need to come to terms with will be in all SW films going forwards.

You are right about the good guy takes control of a AT-ST, but no big deal to me, such a minor thing.



I'll give you Phasma was very Fett.

I thought the time spent on the gambling planet was completely different to other SW films.

Sure Luke teaching Rey was like Empire, but really this cannot be a cause of criticism. We knew from the end of TFA this was going to happen. However, in this case it was injected with lots of comedy which really worked. Also Yoda wasn't a failed master that Luke was, so again the scenes played out differently.

My basic point is while there were scene which look similar to previous SW films, everything played out differently. It looks on the surface similar, but when you dig deep they twisted everything around.


Yeah, I get how part of it is just the "nature of the beast" but it still felt like there was too much that we'd seen before in 1 movie or another (the throne room scene, the scene with the AT-ATs at the end, the Millennium Falcon flying through the planet, etc.) Even "twisted up" as they were, I still had a sense of deja vu in a few of those scenes.

Also.. Rebel Decoder rings? Why was this a thing?

The very first order General Leia issues is promptly ignored and Poe gets slapped, demoted and then sent back out in the field like nothing happened?

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