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The Star Wars Thread

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Re: The Star Wars Thread

Postby Strict31 » Tue Nov 09, 2010 9:54 pm

Cat-Scratch wrote:
I wouldn't really say the only one, but the most obvious one.

Some event which leads to a death or massive number of deaths could work. Something where Anakin feels conflicted between being a bit of a rogue or a strict by the book type of Jedi. I'd also say the breaking of the rules type scenes could also lead to it, as Zechs says, but so far, they're too few and far apart to be the cause. As you said, her death or near death is a perfect catalyst and fits with Lucas style of crayon writing. If her death is connected with Asajj Ventress and Anakin feels bad for not having offed her earlier in the war...


Well, what I mean is, the catalyst for Anakin's fall was his fear of padme dying, based on his anger at his mom's death. Obviously, in the movies, the only basis for that fear is some dream of the future. And like Yoda says, "always in motion the future is." I mean...I'm just saying, it's a dream that makes him willing to kill children?

There are three important women in Anakin's life. His mom, Padme, and Ahsoka. He was powerless to save his mom. If he's powerless to save Ahsoka, the war will have taken more from him than his sanity could bear. Ahsoka's a child, forced to fight as an adult by circumstance. He sees her almost as a little sister. If he loses her, it would crush his entire moral being. He'd succumb to the so-called fog of war, and would lose any sense of the value of life, because it can be taken away from anyone in a flash.

All he'll have left of value to him is Padme. No obstacle will be too great, no atrocity too unbearable to keep her from dying as well.

The beauty of it is, Ahsoka doesn't really need to die. But everyone needs to think she did. Anakin needs to think she was lost. She can actually survive somehow, unknown to the other characters. Which means they don't have to kill off a character who's become a fan-favorite.
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Re: The Star Wars Thread

Postby The Old Doctor » Tue Nov 09, 2010 10:23 pm

Strict31 wrote:
Well, what I mean is, the catalyst for Anakin's fall was his fear of padme dying, based on his anger at his mom's death. Obviously, in the movies, the only basis for that fear is some dream of the future. And like Yoda says, "always in motion the future is." I mean...I'm just saying, it's a dream that makes him willing to kill children?

There are three important women in Anakin's life. His mom, Padme, and Ahsoka. He was powerless to save his mom. If he's powerless to save Ahsoka, the war will have taken more from him than his sanity could bear. Ahsoka's a child, forced to fight as an adult by circumstance. He sees her almost as a little sister. If he loses her, it would crush his entire moral being. He'd succumb to the so-called fog of war, and would lose any sense of the value of life, because it can be taken away from anyone in a flash.

All he'll have left of value to him is Padme. No obstacle will be too great, no atrocity too unbearable to keep her from dying as well.

The beauty of it is, Ahsoka doesn't really need to die. But everyone needs to think she did. Anakin needs to think she was lost. She can actually survive somehow, unknown to the other characters. Which means they don't have to kill off a character who's become a fan-favorite.



Actually, I'd say that considering that Ashoka didn't even exist in the movies, she really could be consider as not being a factor at all. We're basing it on what we now get to see which is a big retcon. I think for any real half decent story telling, a balance would be needed to comprise both of those continuities. Ashoka not dying yet having an affect on Anakin yet also, not much of an impact.

The only thing I can think of is Ahsoka betraying him. She'd be gone and not referred to the final film, yet still have an impact on Anakin for those of us that watch the Clone Wars series. It would embellish the final film, but not have a contradictory feel.

Ankin turned on Padme because he thought he betrayed. This could play off of it in a sense and still give a feel of loss for Anakin plus give us a reason for her lack of presence.

But then, there's always Lucas Remastering the Prequel with Ashoka scenes. :roll:

However, Lucas' writing sucks and to make this work... won't happen. His crayons don't come in those colours.
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Re: The Star Wars Thread

Postby Zechs » Tue Nov 09, 2010 10:43 pm

Well the fact is, that is the only end the Clone Wars can have. Anakin has to believe Ahsoka dead. Or the show ends with him killing her himself. Who knows. Other than um.. she's not in Episode III which can mean only one thing. :P SHE DEAD... Still I can't believe I'm the only person who gets hints of the Clone Wars gives on Anakin's downfall in this. I mean the seeds of this are all over the place and I'm the only one seeing it here?! WHAT THE HECK!?

I mean the only person who probably can escape and live an actual descent life is Rex. The episode in Season 2 (which now that I watch it more makes little sense unless those kids age damn fast) and again in Season 1 (the clone that went traitor/informant to Ventress) shows that there's a possibility that Rex might survive the Clone Wars to retire peacefully somewhere the Empire will not reach. But then again... his ass can get killed at any moment as well.
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Re: The Star Wars Thread

Postby Strict31 » Tue Nov 09, 2010 11:49 pm

Cat-Scratch wrote:

Actually, I'd say that considering that Ashoka didn't even exist in the movies, she really could be consider as not being a factor at all. We're basing it on what we now get to see which is a big retcon. I think for any real half decent story telling, a balance would be needed to comprise both of those continuities. Ashoka not dying yet having an affect on Anakin yet also, not much of an impact.

The only thing I can think of is Ahsoka betraying him. She'd be gone and not referred to the final film, yet still have an impact on Anakin for those of us that watch the Clone Wars series. It would embellish the final film, but not have a contradictory feel.

Ankin turned on Padme because he thought he betrayed. This could play off of it in a sense and still give a feel of loss for Anakin plus give us a reason for her lack of presence.

But then, there's always Lucas Remastering the Prequel with Ashoka scenes. :roll:

However, Lucas' writing sucks and to make this work... won't happen. His crayons don't come in those colours.


Ahsoka has to remain perfect in Anakin's eyes. The perfect Padawan, the perfect friend, the perfect surrogate little sister. Why would she betray him? She's even more loyal to him than Obi-Wan. But there's a really good reason for her to die; she's a soldier in a war. They die rather often.

So, I think it makes more sense to either have her die, or to appear as if she's died. Appearing as if she died is the best of both worlds, given her popularity.

If she's dead, there's no reason she would be brought up in RotS. No loose end whatsover, and no need to retcon anything.

If she only appears to have died, well, the characters still think she's dead, and again, no loose end to tie up with a retcon. But, she can still make appearances in comics and stories set after RotS. Which appeases the fans.

Thought a lot about how that might work, because a few moths ago, I had an idea for a picture of Ahsoka. Grown-up, but missing an arm. She had a cybernetic replacement. And she was confronting Vader. The idea was that at the end of the Clone Wars timeline, she gets into a fight, maybe with Ventress, and loses the arm. Anakin tries to get to her, but She seems to get crushed in a rockslide, or maybe the ship they're on explodes, and she's believed dead.

But she's found drifting in a lifepod by some good samaritan type, close to death. He realizes she's a Jedi, but by this time, Order 66 has been given, and the samaritan decides to hide her and nurses her back to health in secret.

By the time she's all healed up, and has a cyber arm replacement, the Jedi order has already been crushed, and she reluctantly goes into hiding. maybe she even gives up being a Jedi and tries to lead a normal life for a while.

But then, she starts hearing stories of what Anakin did, and that he's become the new Dark Lord of the Sith. She thinks that she can rescue her former master from darkness, but she's got a new peaceful life now, with new friends, out on the Rim, where the Empire will never bother them. Maybe she's even fallen in love with someone.

But the Empire does bother them. And after years have passed, she finally takes up her lightsaber again when the Empire comes calling to set a garrison on her new home.

Vader hears reports of a Jedi attacking the garrison on this Outer Rim world, he he goes to personally deal with the situation, only to find Snips. She tries to remind him of the man he once was, and for a moment...only a moment, he remembers. But he tells her he has a new master. And soon, she will too. Then, the lightsabers come out, and they have this epic and tragic fight. maybe he kills her. Maybe he beats her and is about to kill her, but has a moment...again, only a moment of weakness. And in that moment, she escapes. He could stop her. Easily. Could destroy her and bring her back to his master. But, impassive in his black facemask, he turns and heads back to his shuttle, granting one final mercy to his old padawan.

This could take place at any time within the 20 year gap between the Prequels and the Original Trilogy.
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Re: The Star Wars Thread

Postby Strict31 » Tue Nov 09, 2010 11:55 pm

Zechs wrote:Well the fact is, that is the only end the Clone Wars can have. Anakin has to believe Ahsoka dead. Or the show ends with him killing her himself. Who knows. Other than um.. she's not in Episode III which can mean only one thing. :P SHE DEAD... Still I can't believe I'm the only person who gets hints of the Clone Wars gives on Anakin's downfall in this. I mean the seeds of this are all over the place and I'm the only one seeing it here?! WHAT THE HECK!?

I mean the only person who probably can escape and live an actual descent life is Rex. The episode in Season 2 (which now that I watch it more makes little sense unless those kids age damn fast) and again in Season 1 (the clone that went traitor/informant to Ventress) shows that there's a possibility that Rex might survive the Clone Wars to retire peacefully somewhere the Empire will not reach. But then again... his ass can get killed at any moment as well.


Okay. But do you get the fact that people disagree with you about those hints? None of the things Anakin has done in this series (or in the movies) gives any explanation as to how he can go from a decent but bratty dude to a guy who fucking kills children. Nothing you've suggested explains that. he literally goes from "democracy and order" to "deep fried younglings" in a single scene.

Exactly what in the movies or the show explains that? All you've submitted as evidence of this shift is his willingness to kill characters and creatures who are all bad guys.
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Re: The Star Wars Thread

Postby dairydead » Wed Nov 10, 2010 12:42 am

Strict31 wrote:
Okay. But do you get the fact that people disagree with you about those hints? None of the things Anakin has done in this series (or in the movies) gives any explanation as to how he can go from a decent but bratty dude to a guy who fucking kills children. Nothing you've suggested explains that. he literally goes from "democracy and order" to "deep fried younglings" in a single scene.

Exactly what in the movies or the show explains that? All you've submitted as evidence of this shift is his willingness to kill characters and creatures who are all bad guys.


Its pretty clear to most people, but you tend to project your logic, and what you'd onto most characters, ive noticed. The facts are pretty clear. The dude mercilessly slaughtered an entire village of tuskens, and liked it. He's been shown to be a good guy that has some fucked up tendencies, which he obviously holds back. He's like a guy who is trying for a promotion at work, and is really fucked up in the head, but puts on his dress shirt and goes to work every day , and no one notices him. He ends up losing the promotion( Jedi Master rank) sees his world crumbling around him ( the possibility of Padme dying, and him getting disrespect from all of his peers and teachers he's spent his childhood and adulthood trying to impress), and just snaps. He listens to the first guy that promises him everything he wanted and more, but at the cost of getting his hands dirty. To Anakin, killing Jedi was always something he thought about doing, but always held back because that was against everything he knew. His world was turned upside down, and as Palpatine told him, nothing was really as he thought, so killing the Jedi ( who are now his enemies), was a must.

bottom line is, he was always mentally unstable, and just very ambitious. When all that is stripped away at once, he had nothing to live for except Padme. He never cared for the "Jedi Order", he just went with it because he could use them to teach him superpowers.
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Re: The Star Wars Thread

Postby Zechs » Wed Nov 10, 2010 12:50 am

dairydead wrote:
Its pretty clear to most people, but you tend to project your logic, and what you'd onto most characters, ive noticed. The facts are pretty clear. The dude mercilessly slaughtered an entire village of tuskens, and liked it. He's been shown to be a good guy that has some fucked up tendencies, which he obviously holds back. He's like a guy who is trying for a promotion at work, and is really fucked up in the head, but puts on his dress shirt and goes to work every day , and no one notices him. He ends up losing the promotion( Jedi Master rank) sees his world crumbling around him ( the possibility of Padme dying, and him getting disrespect from all of his peers and teachers he's spent his childhood and adulthood trying to impress), and just snaps. He listens to the first guy that promises him everything he wanted and more, but at the cost of getting his hands dirty. To Anakin, killing Jedi was always something he thought about doing, but always held back because that was against everything he knew. His world was turned upside down, and as Palpatine told him, nothing was really as he thought, so killing the Jedi ( who are now his enemies), was a must.

bottom line is, he was always mentally unstable, and just very ambitious. When all that is stripped away at once, he had nothing to live for except Padme. He never cared for the "Jedi Order", he just went with it because he could use them to teach him superpowers.



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Re: The Star Wars Thread

Postby Strict31 » Wed Nov 10, 2010 1:16 am

dairydead wrote:
Its pretty clear to most people, but you tend to project your logic, and what you'd onto most characters, ive noticed. The facts are pretty clear. The dude mercilessly slaughtered an entire village of tuskens, and liked it. He's been shown to be a good guy that has some fucked up tendencies, which he obviously holds back. He's like a guy who is trying for a promotion at work, and is really fucked up in the head, but puts on his dress shirt and goes to work every day , and no one notices him. He ends up losing the promotion( Jedi Master rank) sees his world crumbling around him ( the possibility of Padme dying, and him getting disrespect from all of his peers and teachers he's spent his childhood and adulthood trying to impress), and just snaps. He listens to the first guy that promises him everything he wanted and more, but at the cost of getting his hands dirty. To Anakin, killing Jedi was always something he thought about doing, but always held back because that was against everything he knew. His world was turned upside down, and as Palpatine told him, nothing was really as he thought, so killing the Jedi ( who are now his enemies), was a must.

bottom line is, he was always mentally unstable, and just very ambitious. When all that is stripped away at once, he had nothing to live for except Padme. He never cared for the "Jedi Order", he just went with it because he could use them to teach him superpowers.


Again with the fucking Tuskens.

How are you forgetting the part where they mercilessly abducted and tortured his mother? Which is a fairly routine occurence on tatooine, and apparently they were still attacking innocent people in Luke's time. And he didn't do it because he liked it. He did it because he hated the living shit out of the monsters that fucking killed his mother. It is, of course, inconvenient to remember these facts when making your argument.

And he decides to kill children (who very clearly have not abducted and tortured his mom), because he has a dream in which Padme may or may not be in some sort of extreme distress which may or may not come to pass?

Lookit, I understand that you're claiming this is a solid reason for his fall. But understand that what I'm saying is that it's bullshit. The path to becoming a child-murdering lunatic is paved by killing bad guys and having a bad dream about his wife? Seriously? That's really all it takes, then? I've had dreams worse than that when my mom and dad both died, and I've stabbed like, a ton of evil fools, and I haven't killed any toddlers. Yet.

I mean, you say "getting his hands dirty" like killing children is just some inconvenient task he's got to accomplish, like cleaning out the Bantha stalls or some shit. He goes from being a champion of democracy and order to killing children almost instantly. Seriously, you and Zechs seem to have more sympathy for the murderous Tunske Raiders than you do for Anakin's dead-ass mom that they killed the shit out of. You both seem to forget or utterly ignore that this is what Tuskens do. And those kid Tuskens are gonna grow up to do it some more.

Maybe he should'a put them in space jail instead of killing the entire village. Or maybe, if Lucas wanted us to be sympathetic to the Sand people, he shouldn't have gone out of his way to portray them as remorseless killers with absolutely no reason to do what they did to Shmi. Might'a helped make the case that he was doing something evil.

I realize that no one expects Star Wars to be War and Peace. But shouldn't it make at least a whit of goddamn sense?
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Re: The Star Wars Thread

Postby dairydead » Wed Nov 10, 2010 1:55 am

Strict31 wrote:
Again with the fucking Tuskens.

How are you forgetting the part where they mercilessly abducted and tortured his mother? Which is a fairly routine occurence on tatooine, and apparently they were still attacking innocent people in Luke's time. And he didn't do it because he liked it. He did it because he hated the living shit out of the monsters that fucking killed his mother. It is, of course, inconvenient to remember these facts when making your argument.

And he decides to kill children (who very clearly have not abducted and tortured his mom), because he has a dream in which Padme may or may not be in some sort of extreme distress which may or may not come to pass?

Lookit, I understand that you're claiming this is a solid reason for his fall. But understand that what I'm saying is that it's bullshit. The path to becoming a child-murdering lunatic is paved by killing bad guys and having a bad dream about his wife? Seriously? That's really all it takes, then? I've had dreams worse than that when my mom and dad both died, and I've stabbed like, a ton of evil fools, and I haven't killed any toddlers. Yet.

I mean, you say "getting his hands dirty" like killing children is just some inconvenient task he's got to accomplish, like cleaning out the Bantha stalls or some shit. He goes from being a champion of democracy and order to killing children almost instantly. Seriously, you and Zechs seem to have more sympathy for the murderous Tunske Raiders than you do for Anakin's dead-ass mom that they killed the shit out of. You both seem to forget or utterly ignore that this is what Tuskens do. And those kid Tuskens are gonna grow up to do it some more.

Maybe he should'a put them in space jail instead of killing the entire village. Or maybe, if Lucas wanted us to be sympathetic to the Sand people, he shouldn't have gone out of his way to portray them as remorseless killers with absolutely no reason to do what they did to Shmi. Might'a helped make the case that he was doing something evil.

I realize that no one expects Star Wars to be War and Peace. But shouldn't it make at least a whit of goddamn sense?


I mean, its cool if you cherry pick parts of what i said, i guess. Bottom line is, the guy was never very loyal in the first place. The dude didn't need to slaughter the whole village, but he did because he felt like it. Right then and there is the point where you realize there's a couple screws loose. I couldn't tell you the "logic" behind every killer out there, mostly because there isnt.

What we do know, given what we've seen is that Anakin is a selfish, dark guy who has absolutely no problem with killing when he sees fit. He's established himself as the judge, jury, and executioner, and as he progresses, he feels he should do what he wants ( become a Jedi Master when hes obviously not qualified). He's very very unstable, to the point where he will kill whomever he pleases, and Palpatine knows this. He knows Anakin has hate in his heart and exploits it, pushing every single button perfectly until he gets Anakin to kill Mace. The Force is not something you fuck around with, and when a person isn't perfectly balanced, things tend to go bad. Like Yoda said, its really easy to fall when emotion comes into play, since the Force is essentially based on emotion.

And i don't know if youre trying to be funny or something, but its pretty obvious that his dream about Padme isnt "just some dream", its a force premonition, something he has been shown to be gifted in ( as evidenced with his mother). He has no reason to believe its not real , in fact it was probably influenced by Palpatine. Even in Empire, Anakin lures Luke to Bespin using the exact same method.

Anakin is a dude who really likes to kill, hates the Jedi Order, is batshit crazy, has had everything he's ever known fall apart in front of him, he "knows" his wife is gonna die unless he does something about it, has been shown to be easily manipulated, has a lot of hatred in him, and is willing to do something about it. Honestly, in real life, weirder things have happened than someone believing his mentor when he is told that "everything you hate will go away, and the only thing you love can be saved, if you kill some people". Especially since he's killed many people and sentients before, and is caught in the heat of the moment after killing the head of the Jedi Order. He was looking at prison time, the guilt of killing a teacher, and his wife dying. Or he could just continue down the path he already knew he was on. There wasn't much choice he had there, except killing Palpatine , the only real friend he had.

So, kill the people you hate, and have been led to believe hate you, or spend your life in prison while your wife dies. Not a hard choice, especially when youre already a little bit crazy.

Bottom line here is, not every single character in fiction thinks exactly how you would. Its not a lack of logic. Its actually kinda funny how you don't seem to get such simple ideas presented here.
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Re: The Star Wars Thread

Postby Strict31 » Wed Nov 10, 2010 5:07 am

dairydead wrote:I mean, its cool if you cherry pick parts of what i said, i guess. Bottom line is, the guy was never very loyal in the first place. The dude didn't need to slaughter the whole village, but he did because he felt like it. Right then and there is the point where you realize there's a couple screws loose. I couldn't tell you the "logic" behind every killer out there, mostly because there isnt.


It's kind of ironic that you're talking about cherry picking when you're completely ignoring the fact that these creatures had just murdered his mother. We're not talking about every killer out there. We're talking about a guy whose mother was just murdered by a race of beings who routinely murder and attack other beings with no provocation. You're dancing around that, but it's a fact of the setting. One less village of Sand People is one less village of Sand People who will attack, abduct and murder people.

Star Wars is a story of polar extremes, and in this story, the Tusken Raiders are the bad guys.

And I'm curious; what does loyalty have to do with anything?

What we do know, given what we've seen is that Anakin is a selfish, dark guy who has absolutely no problem with killing when he sees fit.


Then I'm afraid that's utter bullshit. Maybe you are forgetting the scene where he expresses remorse and shame for what he did immediately after doing it. Your facts are a bit off here, because that's not the act of a guy who "has no problem killing when he sees fit." I mean, this shit is right in the fuckin' movie, D. Are you arguing with me just for the fuck of it?

He doesn't even kill Padme's would be assassin when he has the chance because it's smarter to let her live to get information from her. She had just tried to murder the woman he loves more than anything in the galaxy, but he's quite capable of restraining himself.

And, you've basically described almost every teenager ever. Selfish and dark. He's whiny and bratty and self-focused. If he didn't carry a lightsaber, he'd be a normal teenager. Well...maybe a little whinier than normal.

Okay a lot whinier than normal. But all that means is he is a bitch-ass. It doesn't mean he's fucking crazy or some shit. As for the killing, this boy is a fuckin' Jedi. They don't give out those lightsabers so Padawans can see in the fuckin' dark. They're weapons, and they're given to children who are taught how to kill with them. If Anakin is a killer, it's the Jedi Order that has trained him to be one. I mean, you don't see him killing people before he joins the Order. Even as a child, he acts to protect and save people.

He's established himself as the judge, jury, and executioner, and as he progresses, he feels he should do what he wants ( become a Jedi Master when hes obviously not qualified). He's very very unstable, to the point where he will kill whomever he pleases, and Palpatine knows this. He knows Anakin has hate in his heart and exploits it, pushing every single button perfectly until he gets Anakin to kill Mace. The Force is not something you fuck around with, and when a person isn't perfectly balanced, things tend to go bad. Like Yoda said, its really easy to fall when emotion comes into play, since the Force is essentially based on emotion.


Oh please, Dairy. Kill whomever he pleases? Where in the fuck are you getting this shit? You didn't get it from the movies. I mean, you're making this shit up out of whole cloth at this point. Even when he has every right to kill Dooku, he hesitates. He doesn't want to do it, but feels the man is too dangerous to live. And since they're on a rescue mission deep inside an enemy ship, it ain't like they can take prisoners. Palpy goads him into the killing, but tactically, it makes sense. The leader of an enemy force is a valid target in a war. And that's the fuck what they're in the middle of. A war. He can't take dooku prisoner, but if he lets him go free, Dooku will continue to lead his troops to kill members of the Republic.

It's a cold logic, but it is logical to kill him.

And he doesn't want to do it! Like I said, Palpy goads him into doing it.

Who else has he wantonly killed, Dairy? Geonoshans who were trying to kill him, his lover and all of his Jedi associates? Droids? Exactly who the fuck is he just wantonly killing as he pleases? Like all jedi, there's a reason behind his killing. Sometimes, it's emotion-driven, like the Tuskens, even though that makes sense. Sometimes it's tactically driven, like Dooku, even though he didn't want to. Sometimes it's expediency, like the geonoshians, because they're actively trying to kill him. And sometimes, it's traitors and sometimes it's evil bounty hunters. But no, he's not killing whomever he pleases.

And i don't know if youre trying to be funny or something, but its pretty obvious that his dream about Padme isnt "just some dream", its a force premonition, something he has been shown to be gifted in ( as evidenced with his mother). He has no reason to believe its not real , in fact it was probably influenced by Palpatine. Even in Empire, Anakin lures Luke to Bespin using the exact same method.


Do you or do you not remember Yoda telling Luke, "Always in motion the future is"? "Difficult to tell"? That's the goddamn head master of the Jedi, who's trained muthafuckas for centuries. If Anakin is having a vision of the future (which he, himself made happen), he should damn well know, as a jedi, that nothing is written in stone.

So, yes, it may or may not happen until it happens. And because he turned to the dark Side, he was the one who was causing all her pain in the vision. This is why Yoda told Luke that the future is difficult to tell. Because Anakin did not see a complete vision of the future. Again, as a Jedi Knight, he should fucking know this. And as an audience member, you should fucking know this too. But, we're back to the irony of your cherry-picking statement earlier. You're doing it.

Anakin is a dude who really likes to kill, hates the Jedi Order, is batshit crazy, has had everything he's ever known fall apart in front of him, he "knows" his wife is gonna die unless he does something about it, has been shown to be easily manipulated, has a lot of hatred in him, and is willing to do something about it. Honestly, in real life, weirder things have happened than someone believing his mentor when he is told that "everything you hate will go away, and the only thing you love can be saved, if you kill some people". Especially since he's killed many people and sentients before, and is caught in the heat of the moment after killing the head of the Jedi Order. He was looking at prison time, the guilt of killing a teacher, and his wife dying. Or he could just continue down the path he already knew he was on. There wasn't much choice he had there, except killing Palpatine , the only real friend he had.


You've got nothing to back any of what you've said up. He's not a guy who really likes to kill, and the movies prove that, as I've pointed out above. He's not batshit crazy, he's a teenager who lost his mom and is forced to fight in a war. he doesn't hate the Order, or else he would have fuckin' left long ago. it's impossible for him to know his wife is gonna die because as a Jedi, he should know that the future is always in motion. He's no more easily manipulated than any other youth with a chip on his shoulder who is being told by authority figures what he has to do with his life. And the only people and sentients he's killed are those who have tried their utter damnedest to either kill him or harm the people he cares about.

And jesus did you even watch the movies? He didn't kill the head of the Jedi order. presumably, you're talking about mace Windu, who isn't the head of the order anyway. But he didn't kill Mace. He chopped his hand off to keep him from killing a presumably helpless foe. Palpy kills Mace because, unbeknownst to both Windu and Anakin, he was just playing possum.

I...look man, your fucking facts are just wrong. I don't know where you're getting this from.

So, kill the people you hate, and have been led to believe hate you, or spend your life in prison while your wife dies. Not a hard choice, especially when youre already a little bit crazy.

Bottom line here is, not every single character in fiction thinks exactly how you would. Its not a lack of logic. Its actually kinda funny how you don't seem to get such simple ideas presented here.


I think the bottom line is that your interpretation is based on facts that are almost completely wrong. I can only imagine this is because you are misremembering the movies, or haven't seen them in a while. Either way, it's kinda silly you trying to take me to task for "not getting such simple ideas." I know it's just an internet argument about a fictional tale, but damn. I mean, here you are being utterly wrong about so much shit and having the nerve to claim I'm the one who's mistaken.

Might wanna get a leg to stand on before you try to start kicking somebody else. I'm just sayin'. I dunno. Maybe we can continue this discussion when you get your facts about the story straight. I mean, If you have a different interpretation of this shit, that's whatever it is; people disagree and shit all the time. But if your interpretation is based on shit that's simply wrong, that ain't a valid fuckin' interpretation.
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Re: The Star Wars Thread

Postby dairydead » Wed Nov 10, 2010 12:51 pm

Strict31 wrote:
It's kind of ironic that you're talking about cherry picking when you're completely ignoring the fact that these creatures had just murdered his mother. We're not talking about every killer out there. We're talking about a guy whose mother was just murdered by a race of beings who routinely murder and attack other beings with no provocation. You're dancing around that, but it's a fact of the setting. One less village of Sand People is one less village of Sand People who will attack, abduct and murder people.

But his Jedi training has taught him to respect all sentient life, regardless of whether or not they did something to piss him off. In fact, as a Jedi, he's not supposed to use hatred, because using hatred is a staple of Sith and Dark Jedi, and its very easy to start down that road

Strict31 wrote:Star Wars is a story of polar extremes, and in this story, the Tusken Raiders are the bad guys.

And I'm curious; what does loyalty have to do with anything?

Then I'm afraid that's utter bullshit. Maybe you are forgetting the scene where he expresses remorse and shame for what he did immediately after doing it. Your facts are a bit off here, because that's not the act of a guy who "has no problem killing when he sees fit." I mean, this shit is right in the fuckin' movie, D. Are you arguing with me just for the fuck of it?

He doesn't even kill Padme's would be assassin when he has the chance because it's smarter to let her live to get information from her. She had just tried to murder the woman he loves more than anything in the galaxy, but he's quite capable of restraining himself.


For as much harping as you've done on "getting my facts straight" you can't seem to remember the part where he flips out and admits to Padme that he killed all of them in cold blood, to the point that he knew it was wrong, but he did it anyways because he hated them so much. He's established himself as the final word, and decided they should be killed, and he had no problem with it. he was not remorseful whatsoever. Also, he wouldve killed Zam Wessel if Obi Wan was there, which is something that is alluded to when he starts screaming at her, but Obi Wan reigns him back. Aaaand Tusken Raiders have never been "the bad guys". They are savages that don't know any better and cause problems for settlers. By this logic, even though their crimes are different, Jawas are "bad guys" because they serve as a foil to the protagonists. Its pretty clear to most people that Tuskens aren't "evil", just savage.


Strict31 wrote:And, you've basically described almost every teenager ever. Selfish and dark. He's whiny and bratty and self-focused. If he didn't carry a lightsaber, he'd be a normal teenager. Well...maybe a little whinier than normal.
Okay a lot whinier than normal. But all that means is he is a bitch-ass. It doesn't mean he's fucking crazy or some shit. As for the killing, this boy is a fuckin' Jedi. They don't give out those lightsabers so Padawans can see in the fuckin' dark. They're weapons, and they're given to children who are taught how to kill with them. If Anakin is a killer, it's the Jedi Order that has trained him to be one. I mean, you don't see him killing people before he joins the Order. Even as a child, he acts to protect and save people.

Yep. Most teenagers don't have the responsibility of saving an entire galaxy thrown upon their shoulders, without giving time to grieve for their dead mother while being given a deadly weapon that they may only use under specific circumstances ( ie: not to avenge his mother). The dude is messed up, and his little crying session after killing the Tuskens says just as much. He didn't have a problem with killing those Tuskens, even though he knew it was wrong, and he laid it out straight to Padme. I don't know how many times the movies have to explain that Anakin doesn't care for the Jedi Order,or shown to use hatred and anger as tools to kill and fight ( something explained many , many times as a big no no)




Strict31 wrote:Oh please, Dairy. Kill whomever he pleases? Where in the fuck are you getting this shit? You didn't get it from the movies. I mean, you're making this shit up out of whole cloth at this point. Even when he has every right to kill Dooku, he hesitates. He doesn't want to do it, but feels the man is too dangerous to live. And since they're on a rescue mission deep inside an enemy ship, it ain't like they can take prisoners. Palpy goads him into the killing, but tactically, it makes sense. The leader of an enemy force is a valid target in a war. And that's the fuck what they're in the middle of. A war. He can't take dooku prisoner, but if he lets him go free, Dooku will continue to lead his troops to kill members of the Republic.

It's a cold logic, but it is logical to kill him.

And he doesn't want to do it! Like I said, Palpy goads him into doing it.


Heh, the very fact that he decided to attack and murder every single Tusken he saw was him killing whomever he pleased. He was filled with hatred, and decided that he should kill them. What you're not getting is that JEDI DO NOT KILL unless it is for defense. In fact, it has been said that one of the main reasons for the fall of the Jedi Order is that they were being manipulated into becoming soldiers, something that goes against the Jedi way. No Jedi shouldve killed Dooku there, and Anakin knew that. He really really wanted to kill him, out of vengeance, but he knew he would have to explain it, considering every single Jedi would view killing Dooku in this way is wrong. The Jedi ARE NOT warriors and " its okay...in war" doesn't, and never has applied to Jedi. They shouldn't have been in the war in the first place, considering it goes against much of their code. Yoda and Mace were goaded into it because they were weak, and it led to Anakin getting pushed around emotionally to the point where he thought he was the one that could decide to "make the tough calls" by himself. The dude is so cocky to think that he was the one that deserved to kill a defenseless man, even if he hesitated. He hesitated because he knew it was wrong, not because he didn't want to. This move is just another step of Anakin's continued allowance of emotion get in his way or duty.


Strict31 wrote:Who else has he wantonly killed, Dairy? Geonoshans who were trying to kill him, his lover and all of his Jedi associates? Droids? Exactly who the fuck is he just wantonly killing as he pleases? Like all jedi, there's a reason behind his killing. Sometimes, it's emotion-driven, like the Tuskens, even though that makes sense. Sometimes it's tactically driven, like Dooku, even though he didn't want to. Sometimes it's expediency, like the geonoshians, because they're actively trying to kill him. And sometimes, it's traitors and sometimes it's evil bounty hunters. But no, he's not killing whomever he pleases.

ANY emotion driven kill is the path to the dark side. Hell, the Jedi Order is so conservative, Mace Windu's lightsaber form (7) uses too much "aggression" and "emotion" to pull it off, so its off limits to Jedi ( except Mace, who apparently is so badass that he can handle it). And given his history, and Episode two, where he charges Dooku with a bloodlust, he DID want to kill him. He just knew it wasn't proper, so he hesitated.



Strict31 wrote:Do you or do you not remember Yoda telling Luke, "Always in motion the future is"? "Difficult to tell"? That's the goddamn head master of the Jedi, who's trained muthafuckas for centuries. If Anakin is having a vision of the future (which he, himself made happen), he should damn well know, as a jedi, that nothing is written in stone.

So, yes, it may or may not happen until it happens. And because he turned to the dark Side, he was the one who was causing all her pain in the vision. This is why Yoda told Luke that the future is difficult to tell. Because Anakin did not see a complete vision of the future. Again, as a Jedi Knight, he should fucking know this. And as an audience member, you should fucking know this too. But, we're back to the irony of your cherry-picking statement earlier. You're doing it.

While we as the audience, and Yoda realize that the future is always in motion, Anakin doesn't. He doesn't even want to take that chance, honestly. He was right when he predicted his mother, and he knows this image of Padme is gonna happen if he doesn't do something about it. He's basing his decision on emotion and previous experience, which is pretty damn reasonable. He doesn't care if its not "complete". He saw his wife dying, and wanted to make sure it didnt happen. Simple enough.


Strict31 wrote:You've got nothing to back any of what you've said up. He's not a guy who really likes to kill, and the movies prove that, as I've pointed out above. He's not batshit crazy, he's a teenager who lost his mom and is forced to fight in a war. he doesn't hate the Order, or else he would have fuckin' left long ago. it's impossible for him to know his wife is gonna die because as a Jedi, he should know that the future is always in motion. He's no more easily manipulated than any other youth with a chip on his shoulder who is being told by authority figures what he has to do with his life. And the only people and sentients he's killed are those who have tried their utter damnedest to either kill him or harm the people he cares about.

And jesus did you even watch the movies? He didn't kill the head of the Jedi order. presumably, you're talking about mace Windu, who isn't the head of the order anyway. But he didn't kill Mace. He chopped his hand off to keep him from killing a presumably helpless foe. Palpy kills Mace because, unbeknownst to both Windu and Anakin, he was just playing possum.

He has no problem with killing, something I've gone to lengths about. He's absolutely unstable, maybe "batshit crazy" was the wrong word, but he is absolutely is emotionally damaged, to the point where giving him clone battalions and a lightsaber is probably the worst idea you could have. He hates the Order, because they are "Holding him back" and not allowing him to use his emotion, or marry his wife. You can't just up and leave the Jedi Order as well, at least without consequences. Thing is , this is all he knows, he's comfortable for the time being, but has always looked for a way out, and Palpatine provided it. And like i said, he may be "no worse than a teenager with a chip on his shoulder", but most teenagers arent given the responsibility of saving the galaxy and keeping a secret wife, while finding time to grieve for their mother.

And yes, Mace windu, along with Yoda are the heads of the Jedi Council. Palpatine organized the situation to make Anakin at least feel like he was the one that caused Mace's death, hence the crying afterwards. Whether he actually did or not is irrelevant.


I...look man, your fucking facts are just wrong. I don't know where you're getting this from.





And hey, if you actually point out what i said was "wrong" then maybe I'll listen. But really, you have yet to "prove" anything. Its pretty clear, at least to most people, that Anakin is damaged goods. He uses hatred and emotion to do his dirty work, and it led him down a path that he felt guilty about. Palpatine preyed on his guilt, and used it as a tool for getting what he wanted. Sure, most kids wouldn't kill their teachers and classmates if given the opportunity, but its very very clear that the war fucked him up. Most kids arent forced into fighting a war, saddled with the title of "the Republic's greatest hero", given the responsibility of making violent and tough decisions on a daily basis. The war became his life, and it messed with his mind. Its all laid out pretty clearly, and although its not "logical" to you, emotionally based actions rarely are.

Seriously though, I enjoy talking about this stuff, but If you insist on being a total dick about this, I won't even bother responding. So, either calm down and be respectful, or don't bother responding back to this, because I won't respond if you continue like you are.
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Re: The Star Wars Thread

Postby The Old Doctor » Wed Nov 10, 2010 1:56 pm

Ashoka... big player in the 20 year gap between the trilogies?
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Re: The Star Wars Thread

Postby PDH » Wed Nov 10, 2010 4:04 pm

Strict31 wrote:Even when he has every right to kill Dooku, he hesitates.


Not only that but when Obi-Wan wakes up he agrees that it was the right thing to do and essentially no big deal. If you get a chance to shoot Hitler, you take it. I don't consider that to be an especially controversial statement.

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Re: The Star Wars Thread

Postby dairydead » Wed Nov 10, 2010 4:09 pm

PDH wrote:
Not only that but when Obi-Wan wakes up he agrees that it was the right thing to do and essentially no big deal. If you get a chance to shoot Hitler, you take it. I don't consider that to be an especially controversial statement.


It was more about Anakin letting his emotions get the best of him. He didn't kill Dooku to protect himself or others, he did it out of hate.
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Re: The Star Wars Thread

Postby Zechs » Wed Nov 10, 2010 4:18 pm

Cat-Scratch wrote:Ashoka... big player in the 20 year gap between the trilogies?


Hardly given they've given that role to Starkiller.
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