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Postby KING King Impulse » Sat Apr 25, 2009 1:41 am

rdrsfn82 wrote:Totally agree. He's one of the most fun characters I've ever read.

There's a reason that the only writer I'd trust with Bart is John Rogers.
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Postby rdrsfn82 » Sat Apr 25, 2009 1:46 am

King Impulse wrote:I disagree quite strongly. I do hate Hal for stealing Kyle's book, but it's not a baseless hate. As a character he bores me, Geoff Johns tries to hard to justify his existence in my opinion and it comes off as Geoff just pushing a personal favourite which no fan likes to see. The only time I've considered liking Hal Jordan is New Frontier, which although a lot of people say is 'his story' I say it's J'onn's story more than anything, but Hal has a role to play (and Hal is only needed because for the story to work, Superman has to be taken off the board). Hal worked better as a supervillain in my opinion, Barry Allen was great as the shadow that pushed Wally to be better, but Hal's legacy was even more important to Kyle, it made him work harder to redeem the name Green Lantern when everyone (including Alan Scott) had given up on it.

Also, I can't relate to Hal on a personal level the way I relate to any of my favourite characters because he's just too old.


I totally agree about New Frontier being the story of the Martian.

As for the rest, I think most of that is because by the time you got into comics Kyle was the GL. Reading about Hal since I was a kid and seeing his fall and redemption before becoming the Spectre is one of my favorite stories. However, I also loved his stuff in the years before that. I don't think you have to hate Hal to love Kyle or hate Kyle to love Hal.

I'd also say, that Hal isn't necessarily a character to relate to in the same way you would with Peter Parker or Kyle. I can't relate to Batman, at all, but he's one of my 3 favorite heroes. Hal's the same way. He's awesome. I love in the episode of The Batman when he showed up. Robin's reaction to him was almost exactly what mine was when I discovered him at the age of 8 or whatever. He's got the coolest power, the coolest hero job, and his cover life is also just awesome. I mean, he oozes cool. He's a guy that can do anything and also spends his days as a test pilot. Plus his relationships with folks like Ollie and Bruce are great and something you can relate to.

However, to each his own.
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Postby rdrsfn82 » Sat Apr 25, 2009 1:47 am

King Impulse wrote:There's a reason that the only writer I'd trust with Bart is John Rogers.


That would probably make me into a huge Bart fan.

I thought Guggenheim did a great job with him, and was very sad it wasn't a long run. I think he could have made Bart as Flash work if he'd been given the reigns from the start.
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Postby rdrsfn82 » Sat Apr 25, 2009 1:56 am

chap22 wrote:and i'll be damned...Big Red pulled it out. good for him. if Tim was gonna lose to anybody, that's probably the only one i'd accept.

i may not agree, but i don't really disagree too strongly either.


I knew it. :-D
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Postby rdrsfn82 » Sat Apr 25, 2009 2:02 am

misac wrote:And here we are, finally.

3-1.


This was a surprise.

I love Y and Yorrick was great, but 355 was the best character in the series. And Ampersand was right there as well. However, giving this book this much love is great. Really happy he did so well, even if you racist assholes left 355 way way way too low.

Tim is great and my quote was used. The one about how he's the only Robin to feel like a Batman in training. Love Tim, despite initially not liking him, and am shocked he didn't win. And for the record. I'm the one that pulled him out of the 8th spot on my list. I realized that I had forgotten to put John Henry on my list. And honestly, I'm glad I edited my list since I'm the only non-racist that voted for that awesome character. Stop hating on the black characters you jerks. :evil:

Now the #1 spot is a guy who I've not read the comics of, but love thanks to the movies and animated movies. Ron Perlman has made me want to read this book. Maybe I'll get to it this summer. Sooner or later I'm going to pick up all the trades.

Overall, a great list for the most part. Some egregious fuck ups, but nothing bad in the top 10.
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Postby KING King Impulse » Sat Apr 25, 2009 2:06 am

rdrsfn82 wrote:As for the rest, I think most of that is because by the time you got into comics Kyle was the GL. Reading about Hal since I was a kid and seeing his fall and redemption before becoming the Spectre is one of my favorite stories. However, I also loved his stuff in the years before that. I don't think you have to hate Hal to love Kyle or hate Kyle to love Hal.

I'm actually still relatively new to comics, my first was Spidey/Black Cat so for as long as I've been reading comics, Hal's been GL. I do have all of Kyle's series though, but I read both that and Johns' run on GL and made up my mind pretty quick about who's my favourite
I'd also say, that Hal isn't necessarily a character to relate to in the same way you would with Peter Parker or Kyle. I can't relate to Batman, at all, but he's one of my 3 favorite heroes. Hal's the same way. He's awesome. I love in the episode of The Batman when he showed up. Robin's reaction to him was almost exactly what mine was when I discovered him at the age of 8 or whatever. He's got the coolest power, the coolest hero job, and his cover life is also just awesome. I mean, he oozes cool. He's a guy that can do anything and also spends his days as a test pilot. Plus his relationships with folks like Ollie and Bruce are great and something you can relate to.

I prefer All-Star Robin's reaction to him, that being, punching him in the throat and nearly killing him. I've had this conversation with Diana_Fan many times over, he describes Hal as the Chuck Yeager of comics which I'm sure is something you'll agree with. The main reason I love Kyle is because as soon as he got the ring, the first thing he did was go to the beach with his girlfriend and muck about with it, making giant mechs and turning himself into a dashing knight and whatnot, which is EXACTLY what I'd do if I was given a Green Lantern ring. Like you say though, to each his own, I have no problem with Hal fans that aren't raving mad about Kyle and I try not to be raving mad about Hal in return.
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Postby KING King Impulse » Sat Apr 25, 2009 2:10 am

rdrsfn82 wrote:That would probably make me into a huge Bart fan.

I thought Guggenheim did a great job with him, and was very sad it wasn't a long run. I think he could have made Bart as Flash work if he'd been given the reigns from the start.

I bought all of FMA out of obligation and I really didn't hate Guggs run, although I'm not a massive fan of his writing. Some Flash fans are upset that Rogues killed when Johns reiterated a million times that the Rogues would never kill a cape (and Geoff's mopped up that mess nicely with Rogues' Revenge) but Guggenheim always stated that editorial demanded that Bart die and it be at the Rogues' hand, so as to set up Countdown, and I believe him.

He did a pretty good job with Bart, playing up the 16 year old in a twenty-something body angle well when it came to his lovelife and I'll always cite the issue where he totally kicks Zoom's ass as a great moment in Bart Allen history. Making Bart into The Flash was a bad idea from the get-go, but Guggenheim almost made it work, and that's the greatest compliment I can give.
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Postby rdrsfn82 » Sat Apr 25, 2009 2:11 am

And since you didn't get enough of my reactions, I'd like to make one last post.

This thread (and really the group of people on both here and OldRama and some that were here and have now left) has introduced me to a bunch of great new comics that I may not have given a chance to otherwise (Preacher, Fables, Criminal, Y, Annihilation, etc.). For that, I'd like to thank everyone.

Also, I'd especially like to thank Bubba, Misac, Greg, and King Impulse for their great work in getting this list up and what not. Great stuff and all of you, especially misac and Bubba, have done a ton of work to keep this list going. Thanks for all the hard work, and I look forward to the team list.
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Postby rdrsfn82 » Sat Apr 25, 2009 2:16 am

King Impulse wrote:I bought all of FMA out of obligation and I really didn't hate Guggs run, although I'm not a massive fan of his writing. Some Flash fans are upset that Rogues killed when Johns reiterated a million times that the Rogues would never kill a cape (and Geoff's mopped up that mess nicely with Rogues' Revenge) but Guggenheim always stated that editorial demanded that Bart die and it be at the Rogues' hand, so as to set up Countdown, and I believe him.

He did a pretty good job with Bart, playing up the 16 year old in a twenty-something body angle well when it came to his lovelife and I'll always cite the issue where he totally kicks Zoom's ass as a great moment in Bart Allen history. Making Bart into The Flash was a bad idea from the get-go, but Guggenheim almost made it work, and that's the greatest compliment I can give.


I agree with all of this. It was a bad idea. It was totally unnecessary. The way they killed him was dumb. However, it was all editorial mandate and he made it work as good as it could have. I honestly think that if they had tried to make it a long term change and let him have the book from the start, he could have made it work.

I actually like Guggenheim a lot. His Blade run was excellent, but crippled by some awful Chaykin art. It's well worth picking up if you can ignore the bad art and focus on a great, fun story. Guggenheim seems to really get the idea of fun comics. Plus he helped create Eli Stone, which I loved.
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Postby KING King Impulse » Sat Apr 25, 2009 2:17 am

rdrsfn82 wrote:And since you didn't get enough of my reactions, I'd like to make one last post.

This thread (and really the group of people on both here and OldRama and some that were here and have now left) has introduced me to a bunch of great new comics that I may not have given a chance to otherwise (Preacher, Fables, Criminal, Y, Annihilation, etc.). For that, I'd like to thank everyone.

Also, I'd especially like to thank Bubba, Misac, Greg, and King Impulse for their great work in getting this list up and what not. Great stuff and all of you, especially misac and Bubba, have done a ton of work to keep this list going. Thanks for all the hard work, and I look forward to the team list.

Absolutely agreed. Even scratching the thanking me part (in the end I did very little work towards this list, I provided the John the Skrull and Ant-Man pics but that was pretty much it, I'm hoping to help out more with teams) Bubba and Misac both do a fantastic job. No-one knew that these lists would grow like this, especially Bubba, and he's done a great job of shouldering the task. I sometimes get a bit angry when a description stops short and misses out some of a character's more recent history but I always remind myself that Bubba puts a lot of effort into these things and does a fantastic job. If we did a Top Outhouse Posters list, I'm damn sure he'd be right up towards the top.
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Postby rdrsfn82 » Sat Apr 25, 2009 2:18 am

King Impulse wrote:I'm actually still relatively new to comics, my first was Spidey/Black Cat so for as long as I've been reading comics, Hal's been GL. I do have all of Kyle's series though, but I read both that and Johns' run on GL and made up my mind pretty quick about who's my favourite

I prefer All-Star Robin's reaction to him, that being, punching him in the throat and nearly killing him. I've had this conversation with Diana_Fan many times over, he describes Hal as the Chuck Yeager of comics which I'm sure is something you'll agree with. The main reason I love Kyle is because as soon as he got the ring, the first thing he did was go to the beach with his girlfriend and muck about with it, making giant mechs and turning himself into a dashing knight and whatnot, which is EXACTLY what I'd do if I was given a Green Lantern ring. Like you say though, to each his own, I have no problem with Hal fans that aren't raving mad about Kyle and I try not to be raving mad about Hal in return.


Jesus, I always forget just how young you are. :shock: :-D

Anyways, Kyle is great and relatable. But one of these days you should read some older, non-Johns Hal stories. You may find you like him. Especially his stuff with Ollie.
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Postby rdrsfn82 » Sat Apr 25, 2009 2:19 am

King Impulse wrote:Absolutely agreed. Even scratching the thanking me part (in the end I did very little work towards this list, I provided the John the Skrull and Ant-Man pics but that was pretty much it, I'm hoping to help out more with teams) Bubba and Misac both do a fantastic job. No-one knew that these lists would grow like this, especially Bubba, and he's done a great job of shouldering the task. I sometimes get a bit angry when a description stops short and misses out some of a character's more recent history but I always remind myself that Bubba puts a lot of effort into these things and does a fantastic job. If we did a Top Outhouse Posters list, I'm damn sure he'd be right up towards the top.


100% agreed. One of my favorite posters on any board. He's done some great work here.

And since he thanked you and Greg, I thanked you and Greg. :-D
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Postby KING King Impulse » Sat Apr 25, 2009 2:21 am

rdrsfn82 wrote:I agree with all of this. It was a bad idea. It was totally unnecessary. The way they killed him was dumb. However, it was all editorial mandate and he made it work as good as it could have. I honestly think that if they had tried to make it a long term change and let him have the book from the start, he could have made it work.

I actually like Guggenheim a lot. His Blade run was excellent, but crippled by some awful Chaykin art. It's well worth picking up if you can ignore the bad art and focus on a great, fun story. Guggenheim seems to really get the idea of fun comics. Plus he helped create Eli Stone, which I loved.

I like what I've read of Resurrection, despite some claims that it rips off TWD but I'm not a fan of his Spidey and it really annoyed me that he teased Cypher returning for ages then introduced some random female mutant that no-one's ever heard of because her power is to not be noticed!?

My mum and dad tell me Eli Stone is really good but I don't have the channel that shows it. They were upset when I told them it was cancelled.
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Postby KING King Impulse » Sat Apr 25, 2009 2:24 am

rdrsfn82 wrote:Jesus, I always forget just how young you are. :shock: :-D

Year younger than Punchy, year older than Twigglet :-D
Anyways, Kyle is great and relatable. But one of these days you should read some older, non-Johns Hal stories. You may find you like him. Especially his stuff with Ollie.

I love Emerald Twilight :-D :wink:

I've just started buying Showcase editions this week (first two: Brave and the Bold: Batman Team-Ups vol 1 and Legion of Superheroes vol 1) so eventually I'll get around to buying a GL one.
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Postby KING King Impulse » Sat Apr 25, 2009 2:26 am

rdrsfn82 wrote:100% agreed. One of my favorite posters on any board. He's done some great work here.

And since he thanked you and Greg, I thanked you and Greg. :-D

Thanks, the plan was for me to do some of the more obscure research and writing, especially because I'm somewhat of an expert on 90's DC, but university got in the way of stuff. I've finished now though so if Bubba wants/needs help with teams, I'll gladly give it him.
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