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[achilles]

Yeah, this is my perspective on this issue.

I'm not a white-guilt ridden liberal intent on making this a race issue because minorities are always the victims and whitey is the great oppressor, nor am I a white victim conservative who needs to use lawyer-speak and technicalities to excuse what Zimmerman did so that whitey can finally win one from these dang minorities that keep getting protected by Nobama.

I think Martin probably was suspicious looking, and probably a thug as well judging on how he was beating the shit out of Zimmerman.

But this is all Zimmerman's fault. He's not Charles fucking Bronson, as Syxx says. He's not fucking Batman. It's not his place to troll the neighborhood carrying a gun and stalking "criminals." That sort of behavior is insane for one, but also it is highly douchey. I've known people like that, and they are neither stable mentally nor likable.

If Zimmerman had gone to the police (and listened to what they said), none of this would have happened. Might he have been defending himself when he shot Martin? Maybe. Even probably. But was that situation his fault to begin with? Yes.

People can argue the technicalities of the law all they want, but strip all the bullshit away, Zimmerman stuck his nose where it didn't belong against the better judgement of anyone with sense and against the recommendation of professionals, and so he is at fault for what happened.

When you strip all the technicalities away, EITHER of them could have stopped this from happening, but Martin was the immediate cause of his own death, by attacking Zimmerman. Any attempt to say otherwise is simply liberal-speak against allowing anyone to defend themselves. And an attempt to excuse Martin's behavior. Which is the real goal, and has been all along. Zimmerman's behavior was stupid, (though I'll point out he WAS the head of the neighborhood watch, and up until he stupidly decided to follow Martin, he was acting sensibly. And that he was ASKED to take that position by his neighbors, including his black neighbors, so his acting in that position was neither Bronsonesque nor racist). Martin's behavior OTOH was criminal. Attempted murder, or assault with intent to commit great bodily harm at the least.

Martin's actions were also the last preventable actions in the chain that led to his death, something you guys seem to overlook in your zeal to excuse him and accuse Zimmerman. As witnessed by your resorting to dismissing the legal arguments, knowing that legally, you've got nothing.

[Cat-Scratch]

I still think a Murder 2 charge is warranted. I admit, I'm looking at this from an Ontarian/Canadian law sense in that I find Zimmerman was predetermined by confronting Martin while armed. He was a neighborhood watch, not a cop or security guard. His job as I see it was to only observe and report, not confront. He confronted, while armed. He did shoot Martin, he admitted to it. I cannot see anyone carrying a gun unless they intend to use it. Defense or not, they intend to use it, or why carry it at all? Martin's character is moot, as he was, based on Zimmerman's statements, not committing a crime or reasonably described as preparing to commit a crime. Why Zimmerman did not make a warning shot is something that still puzzles me, more with all the reports of him be such a "nice guy". Even with the thought of an over reaction on his part, does not make it manslaughter. It makes it murder as he pointed the gun at Martin and pulled the trigger. This after starting the altercation via confrontation without any real authority.

Yes, the law is an ass. The SYG law may provide Zimmerman a defense for this, but I still say it's a bad law for it to have been used, maybe successfully, to defend a murder that was begun, not for good reason.

As for racism, no. IF the information of the homes being broken into and burgled by mostly young black males... (how they came to that info?) Does give a reason for Zimmerman to be curious about Martin. But not to confront.

No matter what the outcome in the courts, folks are going to go batshit insane over this.

[HNutz]

I still think a Murder 2 charge is warranted. I admit, I'm looking at this from an Ontarian/Canadian law sense in that I find Zimmerman was predetermined by confronting Martin while armed. He was a neighborhood watch, not a cop or security guard. His job as I see it was to only observe and report, not confront. He confronted, while armed. He did shoot Martin, he admitted to it. I cannot see anyone carrying a gun unless they intend to use it. Defense or not, they intend to use it, or why carry it at all? Martin's character is moot, as he was, based on Zimmerman's statements, not committing a crime or reasonably described as preparing to commit a crime. Why Zimmerman did not make a warning shot is something that still puzzles me, more with all the reports of him be such a "nice guy". Even with the thought of an over reaction on his part, does not make it manslaughter. It makes it murder as he pointed the gun at Martin and pulled the trigger. This after starting the altercation via confrontation without any real authority.

Yes, the law is an ass. The SYG law may provide Zimmerman a defense for this, but I still say it's a bad law for it to have been used, maybe successfully, to defend a murder that was begun, not for good reason.

As for racism, no. IF the information of the homes being broken into and burgled by mostly young black males... (how they came to that info?) Does give a reason for Zimmerman to be curious about Martin. But not to confront.

No matter what the outcome in the courts, folks are going to go batshit insane over this.

It's kinda hard to make a warning shot when the other guy is breaking your nose, etc.

Zimmerman found himself in a dangerous situation that BOTH of them contributed to. He made a split second decision. We can armchair quarterback it now, which is a luxury he didn't have at the time, while his victim (an innocent looking 13 year old, according to the media at first) was "beating him MMA style".

[Eli Katz]

This is for Achilles:

"There is lots of new evidence that was made public this week in the Trayvon Martin case. He did have marijuana in his system, a drug that has never made anyone on planet Earth violent. And at the moment that he confronted, or was confronted by the wannabe cop loser who was stalking him, turns out he probably did beat the dog shit out of that guy. I just want to say if I had a son he would not look like Trayvon Martin, but I hope he would act like him," Bill Maher said on Friday's broadcast of his HBO show "Real Time."

You're welcome.

[Cat-Scratch]

It's kinda hard to make a warning shot when the other guy is breaking your nose, etc.

Zimmerman found himself in a dangerous situation that BOTH of them contributed to. He made a split second decision. We can armchair quarterback it now, which is a luxury he didn't have at the time, while his victim (an innocent looking 13 year old, according to the media at first) was "beating him MMA style".

Take the gun, point it in the air, discharge. Warn the next shot goes through the person you're giving the warning to.

Cops go through this armchair stuff all the time. The point is, that there is a very fine line when the deadly force used was acceptable, and when it isn't. Under the SYG law, he may have had that going for him (Zimmerman), but I know he wouldn't be able to use it here. Convincing a judge that he felt his life was in jeopardy at that point and no other recourse... ify at best. More given the circumstances and how it all came to be.

[dairydead]

This is for Achilles:






You're welcome.

Its pathetic that anyone would want their child to try to murder someone because someone followed him

[achilles]

Take the gun, point it in the air, discharge. Warn the next shot goes through the person you're giving the warning to.

Cops go through this armchair stuff all the time. The point is, that there is a very fine line when the deadly force used was acceptable, and when it isn't. Under the SYG law, he may have had that going for him (Zimmerman), but I know he wouldn't be able to use it here. Convincing a judge that he felt his life was in jeopardy at that point and no other recourse... ify at best. More given the circumstances and how it all came to be.

Er, Cat, you do know that firing a "warning shot" is generally prosecuted in the US? You can fire for real or not, but warning shots are really not allowed. And you better be able to back it up if you do fire for real.

For what it's worth, most independent legal experts have looked at the indictment and said it doesn't warrant a second degree murder charge. In fact, Alan Dershowitz, a liberal legal expert of considerable note from Harvard Law, has gone on record as saying that the prosecutor not only put together an arrest warrant that doesn't hold any water, but one that she herself could be prosecuted for----on a charge of perjury, for withholding evidence---namely the injury reports of Zimmerman and the photos. Legally, those are required in an arrest warrant, (all exculpatory evidence is required to be presented as well as evidence for the prosecution).

As for convincing a judge, as I've said earlier, in the US, the standard is the somewhat vague "reasonable person" test. In other words, if under the same exact circumstances, a reasonable person would conclude that their life would be in danger, or that they would be in danger of great bodily harm if they did not use lethal force, then it is self defense.

Notice that there's no mention of what put you in that situation, though the commission of a crime is generally an exception to the self defense laws. Stupidity, however, is not.

For example, if you walk in a neighborhood that is known by you to be dangerous, and are forced then to use lethal force to defend yourself, that stupidity doesn't not take away your right to use self defense.

[achilles]

This is for Achilles:



You're welcome.

No, this is unacceptable. I only take offerings of pictures of hot bondage nuns or hot blond ladies with big boobs. Do better next time!

I will note that it does cause impaired judgment, as well as anxiety in some cases, both of which might account for why Martin attacked Zimmerman, rather than simply leaving when Zimmerman started to leave himself. Nor do I count Maher as a great genius to be listened to with any seriousness.

[spidertour02]

Its pathetic that anyone would want their child to try to murder someone because someone followed him

With a gun. Because he's black.

[LobsterJ]

Its pathetic that anyone would want their child to try to murder someone because someone followed him

For someone who was going on about people assuming things earlier...you sure are assuming Martin was intending to murder Zimmerman often enough.

[Cat-Scratch]

Er, Cat, you do know that firing a "warning shot" is generally prosecuted in the US? You can fire for real or not, but warning shots are really not allowed. And you better be able to back it up if you do fire for real.

For what it's worth, most independent legal experts have looked at the indictment and said it doesn't warrant a second degree murder charge. In fact, Alan Dershowitz, a liberal legal expert of considerable note from Harvard Law, has gone on record as saying that the prosecutor not only put together an arrest warrant that doesn't hold any water, but one that she herself could be prosecuted for----on a charge of perjury, for withholding evidence---namely the injury reports of Zimmerman and the photos. Legally, those are required in an arrest warrant, (all exculpatory evidence is required to be presented as well as evidence for the prosecution).

As for convincing a judge, as I've said earlier, in the US, the standard is the somewhat vague "reasonable person" test. In other words, if under the same exact circumstances, a reasonable person would conclude that their life would be in danger, or that they would be in danger of great bodily harm if they did not use lethal force, then it is self defense.

Notice that there's no mention of what put you in that situation, though the commission of a crime is generally an exception to the self defense laws. Stupidity, however, is not.

For example, if you walk in a neighborhood that is known by you to be dangerous, and are forced then to use lethal force to defend yourself, that stupidity doesn't not take away your right to use self defense.

America.. where a warning shot is illegal, but not if it's into someone. My head hurts now...

Like I said, Ontarian/Canadian viewpoint for me, but the laws are different there. Hence, the law is an ass. From my stand point.

[Cat-Scratch]

No, this is unacceptable. I only take offerings of pictures of hot bondage nuns or hot blond ladies with big boobs. Do better next time!

I will note that it does cause impaired judgment, as well as anxiety in some cases, both of which might account for why Martin attacked Zimmerman, rather than simply leaving when Zimmerman started to leave himself. Nor do I count Maher as a great genius to be listened to with any seriousness.

Psssst! You forgot to mention it also gives the munchies and giggles too....

[dick buff]

Average black guy = not suspicious.

Wannabe gangsta black guy in a neighborhood with a string of recent wannabe gangsta black guy crimes, acting weird, staring at houses in the rain = suspicious.

[dick buff]

Marijuana - a drug that effects each person differently, making some people extremely paranoid, causing them to react irrationally (violence included). Just because pot makes you a happy go lucky guy who loves the world does not mean it does that for someone else. It's certainly no meth, but marijuana can lead to altercations just the same as any mind altering substance. You can't write off the toxicology as "just marijuana" and deem it insignificant, because it most certainly could have effected Trayvon's actions.

[achilles]

America.. where a warning shot is illegal, but not if it's into someone. My head hurts now...

Like I said, Ontarian/Canadian viewpoint for me, but the laws are different there. Hence, the law is an ass. From my stand point.

Well, I know it sounds a bit weird, but the reasoning is...wait a minute, it IS weird!

Probably has something to do with not knowing where the bullet from the warning shot will go. Or at least that's my guess. Point is, you better be real sure when you fire your gun in a situation like that, and it better be only for immediate self defense.