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WAR!!!

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Victorian Squid
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Re: WAR!!!

Postby Victorian Squid » Sat Aug 31, 2013 1:44 pm

The problem I see is we waited too long to do anything about Syria if we were going to, in fact in the short term we watched them prepare for the chemical attack and did nothing to try and stop it or protect anyone. And now we've announced we will undertake a very "narrow" and "limited" punitive action and given them days to move things around, disperse chemical stockpiles, and in some cases put people in places that might be targets. And we stand to gain little or nothing by it, and will open up the whole Pandora's Box of unintended consequences and Murphy's Law scenarios. These sorts of situations where the goal is entirely unclear, aren't necessarily truly in our national interest, and aren't regime change are very dangerous.

I remember the Clinton/Milosevic times well, and I think things are much murkier here and we have a much more conflicted and muddled administration at the helm, and very little international support.

And a lousy President.

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Re: WAR!!!

Postby achilles » Sat Aug 31, 2013 2:21 pm

habitual wrote:This thread is hilarious! :lol:

Hab


These sorts of threads usually are. :lol: Only thing that's missing is the butthurt.
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Re: WAR!!!

Postby Arion » Sat Aug 31, 2013 6:14 pm

Herald wrote:
France was on our side in Afghanistan, too. :P


Ah, the French bring good luck, eh?

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Re: WAR!!!

Postby Spektre » Sat Aug 31, 2013 10:26 pm

S.F. Jude Terror wrote:
Yes. The imaginary money.


The money is not imaginary. Money is whatever people accept it to be.
- Continuity is or it is not. There is no such thing as soft continuity.
- A character IS his continuity.
- Continuity is consistency of the characteristics of people, plot, objects, and places seen by the reader or viewer.

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Re: WAR!!!

Postby S.F. Jude Terror » Sat Aug 31, 2013 10:31 pm

Spektre wrote:
The money is not imaginary. Money is whatever people accept it to be.


It's created from thin air, and the "debt" the government owes in exchange for it doesn't really mean anything except as another tool to justify worldwide oppression. The bottom line is that the government will never pay the "debt" it owes (but everyone else damn well better), and will just keep spending as it pleases, especially on war.
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Re: WAR!!!

Postby Spektre » Sat Aug 31, 2013 10:50 pm

S.F. Jude Terror wrote:
It's created from thin air, and the "debt" the government owes in exchange for it doesn't really mean anything except as another tool to justify worldwide oppression. The bottom line is that the government will never pay the "debt" it owes (but everyone else damn well better), and will just keep spending as it pleases, especially on war.


I agree. Money is created out of thin air anywhere fiat currency is used (read "most of the world"). I think it debatable whether or not the government will ever pay off its debt or not, but being that it is a fiat currency, to do so would be trivial (even if the repercussions were not).
- Continuity is or it is not. There is no such thing as soft continuity.
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Re: WAR!!!

Postby S.F. Jude Terror » Sat Aug 31, 2013 11:31 pm

Spektre wrote:
I agree. Money is created out of thin air anywhere fiat currency is used (read "most of the world"). I think it debatable whether or not the government will ever pay off its debt or not, but being that it is a fiat currency, to do so would be trivial (even if the repercussions were not).


:) I believe we are in agreement.

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Re: WAR!!!

Postby Herald » Sun Sep 01, 2013 12:33 pm

achilles wrote:The Republican suck for many reasons, including some financial ones, but they aren't the ones in power. They haven't presided over this lovely economy the last five years.


The lovely economy that Dubya left for Obama to deal with. (Funny how Republicans love to forget that they WERE the ones in power when the bad economy got started.) No one can stop a full-tilt runaway train immediately, you know; it takes time.

And the Republicans BTW largely cave to Obama on everything he wants in the end. So they're not really sacrificing anything. Nor are they obligated to just give him what he wants on the grounds that "they" are the ones endangering the country. After all, it takes two to play that game. Obama and the Dems could have backed down at any time as well, but they never did.


The Republicans HAD to, for example, agree to raise the debt ceiling -- which they did only AFTER the deadline passed, I might add, not in any sort of timely manner. If they didn't, it would plunge the American economy and the world economy with it into a major downfall. It wasn't a matter of "caving to Obama" as if they were doing him a big favor.

Frankly, I find it all-too revealing that you and too many Republicans paint such actions as largely about "caving to Obama" -- some kind of capitulation, a loss of face or territory -- rather than being about serving the best interests of their state and their country. (You know, the job they were elected to do.) That attitude of any compromise or support being equivalent to "helping out the enemy" is a -- if not THE -- major problem nowadays. When the government is at war with itself, afraid to come to any across-the-aisle agreement because "GASP! Somebody ELSE besides US just MIGHT look good if I sign on to this! :shock:", it's no wonder that nobody in the government can get anything done.

And thus, it's also no wonder that much of the American public don't care about politics. The people in the government seem little interested in serving them, and mostly concerned with holding on to power, if not grabbing more. And DEFINITELY making sure that the other side looks as bad as possible while doing so. It's like a popularity contest amongst high schoolers, with all the sophomoric aura that implies. Pitiful. Problem is, this ain't high school; the stakes our government operates on are far too high for this kind of adolescent preening.

On that note, I think it's time I left this thread. Like the government's debates, this, too, will come to little agreement on anything of measure, with everyone largely just opposing ANYthing the other side says, ad infinitum. It's why the "Which way did I vote on war 10 years ago? I'm voting the OTHER way, now!" joke is so apt. It doesn't matter what the proposal is; the only concern is who's making the proposal. "If I don't like you, then I don't care how good your idea sounds, I'm against it!!" It's a horribly superficial attitude to take.

That sort of thing gets tiresome to me after awhile when the "professionals" do it, so honestly, the idea of watching you guys do it -- much less participating in it -- sounds even less palatable.

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Re: WAR!!!

Postby GOSD » Sun Sep 01, 2013 4:25 pm

So, will Obama do something soon or let someone else make the tough decision for him?

The guy is a terrible leader.

Personally, I don't care about anyone in Syria or the Middle East. I hope all of them die.

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Re: WAR!!!

Postby Rockman » Sun Sep 01, 2013 5:26 pm

GOSD wrote:So, will Obama do something soon or let someone else make the tough decision for him?

The guy is a terrible leader.

Personally, I don't care about anyone in Syria or the Middle East. I hope all of them die.


even our friend from Egypt who cannot be named!?

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Re: WAR!!!

Postby Arion » Sun Sep 01, 2013 8:16 pm

GOSD wrote:
Personally, I don't care about anyone in Syria or the Middle East. I hope all of them die.


That region is nothing but problems, eh?

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Re: WAR!!!

Postby achilles » Sun Sep 01, 2013 8:25 pm

Herald wrote:The lovely economy that Dubya left for Obama to deal with. (Funny how Republicans love to forget that they WERE the ones in power when the bad economy got started.) No one can stop a full-tilt runaway train immediately, you know; it takes time.


Funny how Obama and the Dems don't mention he hasn't done anything to fix the economy. That would be the one largely fucked up BTW by the Dems, not the Republicans. Who held the actual power for the last part of the Lesser Bush Presidency---that is both houses of Congress. And who were critical in passing the laws that sparked the economic collapse in the first place, the laws that encouraged, in fact mandated, the sort of mortgage lending that led to the real estate bubble the triggered the collapse when it burst. And yes, Obama himself voted for some of those laws as a Senator.

And the Republicans BTW largely cave to Obama on everything he wants in the end. So they're not really sacrificing anything. Nor are they obligated to just give him what he wants on the grounds that "they" are the ones endangering the country. After all, it takes two to play that game. Obama and the Dems could have backed down at any time as well, but they never did.


The Republicans HAD to, for example, agree to raise the debt ceiling -- which they did only AFTER the deadline passed, I might add, not in any sort of timely manner. If they didn't, it would plunge the American economy and the world economy with it into a major downfall. It wasn't a matter of "caving to Obama" as if they were doing him a big favor.

Frankly, I find it all-too revealing that you and too many Republicans paint such actions as largely about "caving to Obama" -- some kind of capitulation, a loss of face or territory -- rather than being about serving the best interests of their state and their country. (You know, the job they were elected to do.) That attitude of any compromise or support being equivalent to "helping out the enemy" is a -- if not THE -- major problem nowadays. When the government is at war with itself, afraid to come to any across-the-aisle agreement because "GASP! Somebody ELSE besides US just MIGHT look good if I sign on to this! :shock:", it's no wonder that nobody in the government can get anything done.

And thus, it's also no wonder that much of the American public don't care about politics. The people in the government seem little interested in serving them, and mostly concerned with holding on to power, if not grabbing more. And DEFINITELY making sure that the other side looks as bad as possible while doing so. It's like a popularity contest amongst high schoolers, with all the sophomoric aura that implies. Pitiful. Problem is, this ain't high school; the stakes our government operates on are far too high for this kind of adolescent preening.

On that note, I think it's time I left this thread. Like the government's debates, this, too, will come to little agreement on anything of measure, with everyone largely just opposing ANYthing the other side says, ad infinitum. It's why the "Which way did I vote on war 10 years ago? I'm voting the OTHER way, now!" joke is so apt. It doesn't matter what the proposal is; the only concern is who's making the proposal. "If I don't like you, then I don't care how good your idea sounds, I'm against it!!" It's a horribly superficial attitude to take.

That sort of thing gets tiresome to me after awhile when the "professionals" do it, so honestly, the idea of watching you guys do it -- much less participating in it -- sounds even less palatable.[/quote]

What I find funny, Herald, is that first of all, you call me a Republican. I'm not, as I've stated. I find little to like with them. But also, you're guilty of what you accuse me and Republicans of---blaming it on the other guy. At any time, I'll point out, Obama and the Dems could have given the Republicans at least some of what they wanted, and probably even stopped a threat of a government shut-down.

But no, Obama had to play his "I won" thing. As did the Congressional Dems. They simply don't negotiate at all with the Republicans. Over things like cutting spending, which is pretty vital if you want a country in a couple of decades. Or at least one that doesn't resemble some third world basket case.
Achilles is the kind of evil that hollows out a volcano for a lair, and sends killer robots after his enemies.---Lord Simian

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Re: WAR!!!

Postby GOSD » Sun Sep 01, 2013 8:39 pm

Rockman wrote:
even our friend from Egypt who cannot be named!?


Yep, ******* needs to leave Egypt and come to the US. I'll make an exception for him.

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Re: WAR!!!

Postby GOSD » Sun Sep 01, 2013 8:44 pm

Arion wrote:
That region is nothing but problems, eh?


Yes.

Read this bullshit -> http://t.news.msn.com/world/arab-states-urge-action-against-syrian-government

The Arab League needs to step up and solve their own fucking problems. The Saudis can use all that billion dollar equipment that we sold to them to good use.

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Re: WAR!!!

Postby achilles » Tue Sep 03, 2013 5:26 pm

Wow, in the time since the last post here, the war talk has really ratcheted up. A bipartisan cast of evildoers has gone on record as supporting war against Syria because...well, we don't like them or something.

In any event, some of them aren't going to be satisfied with lobbing a few cruise missiles at aspirin factories, but want more. John "Mad Dog" McCain, famous failed Presidential candidate and all around nutcase wants much harsher measures---basically he wants to support Al Qaeda over Assad because...well, he's insane.

Kerry, the much mocked Secretary of State, now seems to want to put soldiers and Marines on the ground there, because he evidently won't be satisfied without an American body count to call his own.

And Obama himself is evidently jealous of Bush the Lesser, and wants his Peace Prize to really mean something. He wants to kill until there's peace or something.

Meanwhile, I find it personally disheartening that Kerry and Pelosi are abandoning their close personal friend Assad over a little gassing. After all, what's a little chemical weapons use on your own people between good friends? Assad and Pelosi made such a cute couple too. Kerry and Assad as well for that matter.

And just to round out the list of supervillians supporting this, that tanned Republican guy loves it, and the accountant looking guy, Cantor does too.

So, even money we do something, whether it be lobbing a few missiles at a Chinese Embassy, or sending in the Marines, regardless of what the American people want. I guess it is true, the more things change, the more they stay the same.
Achilles is the kind of evil that hollows out a volcano for a lair, and sends killer robots after his enemies.---Lord Simian

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