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So who's getting Obamacare?

What will you be doing once Obamacare takes effect?

I will be keeping my current plan.
24
65%
I will be signing up for a new plan under Obamacare.
6
16%
I will be losing my insurance.
1
3%
I don't have insurance now and will continue to not have it.
3
8%
I am a US Senator or major corporation so I am exempt.
3
8%
  Total votes : 37

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User avatar

Thunderstorm

Not a Kardashian

Postby Thunderstorm » Thu Oct 17, 2013 4:04 pm

Spektre wrote:
I would argue under capitalism you have a choice Thunder, if not the world handed to you on a silver platter. Under socialism, you have none.


I think whether it's your position or socialism, the systems can work under the right circumstances and with the right people. This country is fucked. It's best used as an example to other countries as what not to do.
User avatar

Spektre

penile prisoner

Postby Spektre » Thu Oct 17, 2013 4:04 pm

ReturnoftheMack wrote:
How so?


Hmm, these dots aren't that hard to connect.

The governments in question are tasked with the equitable distribution of a finite resource (in this case healthcare). How do they ensure this is being done without a market to determine the actual value of these goods and services.
User avatar

Spektre

penile prisoner

Postby Spektre » Thu Oct 17, 2013 4:07 pm

Thunderstorm wrote:
I think whether it's your position or socialism, the systems can work under the right circumstances and with the right people. This country is fucked. It's best used as an example to other countries as what not to do.


I tend to agree that America can be used as a lesson for any future nations.

Incredible prosperity when the government controls the market the least; incredible debt when the government controls the most; eventual collapse when the people don't learn from this mistake.

Oh wait...that lesson had already been seen over and over through history.
User avatar

Frag

REAL OFFICIAL President of the Outhouse

Postby Frag » Thu Oct 17, 2013 4:08 pm

Spektre wrote:
Hmm, these dots aren't that hard to connect.

The governments in question are tasked with the equitable distribution of a finite resource (in this case healthcare). How do they ensure this is being done without a market to determine the actual value of these goods and services.


Somehow it seems to be working. How do you answer that?
User avatar

habitual

Silly French Man

Postby habitual » Thu Oct 17, 2013 4:09 pm

Spektre wrote:
I would argue under capitalism you have a choice Thunder, if not the world handed to you on a silver platter. Under socialism, you have none.


The early 20th century called and it's said that you're entirely incorrect.

There is even a lexicon that's been created to address non-choice in capitalism.

Again, what Jude said, your examples are pure fantasy.

Hab
User avatar

Spektre

penile prisoner

Postby Spektre » Thu Oct 17, 2013 4:12 pm

ReturnoftheMack wrote:
Somehow it seems to be working. How do you answer that?


Obviously magic.

Seriously though, you could say WE get to be the market for the world. They outsource their price signaling to someone else.

But also what you find is it isn't working. Healthcare is rationed based on inefficient signaling that is more deeply buried and thus less obvious to the masses than the effect price signaling free market.
User avatar

Spektre

penile prisoner

Postby Spektre » Thu Oct 17, 2013 4:13 pm

habitual wrote:
The early 20th century called and it's said that you're entirely incorrect.

There is even a lexicon that's been created to address non-choice in capitalism.

Again, what Jude said, your examples are pure fantasy.

Hab


Oh look it's History by Fiat Hab again. How ya been doing? Gotten anyone to buy into the holocaust never happening?
User avatar

Thunderstorm

Not a Kardashian

Postby Thunderstorm » Thu Oct 17, 2013 4:14 pm

Spektre wrote:
I tend to agree that America can be used as a lesson for any future nations.

Incredible prosperity when the government controls the market the least; incredible debt when the government controls the most; eventual collapse when the people don't learn from this mistake.

Oh wait...that lesson had already been seen over and over through history.


People are stupid. They think their time is special, and their government is just. Obviously neither are true, but the majority still believes this. The people at the top know this, and always have. That's why I don't your ideas would be a better alternative. The root problem is still there.
User avatar

habitual

Silly French Man

Postby habitual » Thu Oct 17, 2013 4:14 pm

Spektre wrote:
Oh look it's History by Fiat Hab again. How ya been doing? Gotten anyone to buy into the holocaust never happening?


Oh look it's Evasion by Fantasy Spektre. I'd ask how you're doing, but, you keep informing us.

Hab
User avatar

Spektre

penile prisoner

Postby Spektre » Thu Oct 17, 2013 4:16 pm

Thunderstorm wrote:
People are stupid. They think their time is special, and their government is just. Obviously neither are true, but the majority still believes this. The people at the top know this, and always have. That's why I don't your ideas would be a better alternative. The root problem is still there.


So in a situation where a problem cannot be eliminated (many fall into this example) you work to maximize the function. IN this case, allowing each person to work in his or her own best interest is the function's maximum. Consolidating power through the threat of violence is a minimum.
User avatar

Spektre

penile prisoner

Postby Spektre » Thu Oct 17, 2013 4:17 pm

habitual wrote:
Oh look it's Evasion by Fantasy Spektre. I'd ask how you're doing, but, you keep informing us.

Hab


I have provided evidence to back up these assertions.

Now tell me, are you accessing the internet on your Bill Gates mandated phone?
User avatar

S.F. Jude Terror

OMCTO

Postby S.F. Jude Terror » Thu Oct 17, 2013 4:19 pm

Spektre wrote:
Bzzzt. Sorry Jude wrong answer. I do discuss real examples LIKE Bill Gates not being able to force you to buy a Windows phone. When pressed to make a real life example yourself, you make some strange hypothetical situation where Bill Gates is able to buy all the antibiotics in the world, and seem to think this is a perfectly reasonable, sustainable example.

Try again oh dealer in fantasy.


There are thousands of examples of the rich oppressing everyone else today. One need only look at the obscene amount of wealth held by a small percentage of the population, and then look at the things that extremely wealthy individuals or corporations do with impunity (like spill oil, dump toxic waste, fund terrorism, employ workers in sweatshops and unsafe working conditions, put dangerous and cancer-causing ingredients in food, hide evidence of harmful nature of their products in order to sell them, etc. etc. etc.) to see the kinds of things that corporations or individuals with money-backed powers do today. Of course, your answer is to say that those things would be disallowed under your philosophy, or that fit individuals could somehow protect themselves from them, but you have no evidence to back that up.
User avatar

habitual

Silly French Man

Postby habitual » Thu Oct 17, 2013 4:24 pm

Spektre wrote:
I have provided evidence to back up these assertions.

Now tell me, are you accessing the internet on your Bill Gates mandated phone?


You have provided zero evidence.

We could talk about things like the Sherman Antitrust Act or the Clayton Act.

Or we could delve further into destroying your fantasy world and talk about Standard Oil, U.S. Steel, AT&T or even MLB in the 20's.

Your entire paradigm is based on a delusion.

Hab
User avatar

habitual

Silly French Man

Postby habitual » Thu Oct 17, 2013 4:27 pm

The President of Spektreland:

Image

Hab
User avatar

Thunderstorm

Not a Kardashian

Postby Thunderstorm » Thu Oct 17, 2013 4:57 pm

Spektre wrote:
So in a situation where a problem cannot be eliminated (many fall into this example) you work to maximize the function. IN this case, allowing each person to work in his or her own best interest is the function's maximum. Consolidating power through the threat of violence is a minimum.


I agree with that, but I'd stick with the Devil I know until there was a system that could keep the big problems in check.

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