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So who's getting Obamacare?

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What will you be doing once Obamacare takes effect?

I will be keeping my current plan.
23
64%
I will be signing up for a new plan under Obamacare.
6
17%
I will be losing my insurance.
1
3%
I don't have insurance now and will continue to not have it.
3
8%
I am a US Senator or major corporation so I am exempt.
3
8%
 
Total votes : 36

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achilles
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Re: So who's getting Obamacare?

Postby achilles » Sun Dec 15, 2013 11:26 am

GLX wrote:
"I come from the Achillian school of economics." - achilles.


I should win the Nobel prize in economics.
Achilles is the kind of evil that hollows out a volcano for a lair, and sends killer robots after his enemies.---Lord Simian

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Re: So who's getting Obamacare?

Postby Spektre » Sun Dec 15, 2013 2:03 pm

S.F. Jude Terror wrote:
You continue to give examples refuting a claim I haven't made, that all empires with income disparity end in revolution. I said they end in wealth redistribution, which they do.

I also offered to recommend a book for you to read, one which focuses precisely on this topic. That offer stands, if you want to read it.


You said quite clearly, "Just need to wait for the United States to collapse under the weight of its own bloated government and for people to rise up and burn corporations to the ground."

and

"Now it (capitalism) drives our entire economy, which itself is little more than an organized system of extracting wealth from the poor and giving it to the rich. That can't possibly go on forever."

and

"A redistribution of wealth, as I said. Sometimes it's done willingly to appease the people and prevent revolution. Sometimes it's a violent uprising. Sometimes it's something different or a mixture. But always, when the rich get too rich and the poor get too poor, the system will collapse or change."

All of which clearly place the income inequality as the causal factor and that greater income equality follows. If what you mean to say is income equality changes when a society is crushed by an outside invader or some other external force we have some agreement. Thus changing the last statement to:

"Regardless of the level of wealth between the rich and poor, economic systems will change over time."

Might give you a meaningful statement. Yours currently reads as "Whenever a contestant is sufficiently bad to get boo'd off the stage on American Idol, the sun will come up the next morning."
- Continuity is or it is not. There is no such thing as soft continuity.
- A character IS his continuity.
- Continuity is consistency of the characteristics of people, plot, objects, and places seen by the reader or viewer.

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Re: So who's getting Obamacare?

Postby S.F. Jude Terror » Sun Dec 15, 2013 4:32 pm

Spektre wrote:
You said quite clearly, "Just need to wait for the United States to collapse under the weight of its own bloated government and for people to rise up and burn corporations to the ground."

and

"Now it (capitalism) drives our entire economy, which itself is little more than an organized system of extracting wealth from the poor and giving it to the rich. That can't possibly go on forever."

and

"A redistribution of wealth, as I said. Sometimes it's done willingly to appease the people and prevent revolution. Sometimes it's a violent uprising. Sometimes it's something different or a mixture. But always, when the rich get too rich and the poor get too poor, the system will collapse or change."

All of which clearly place the income inequality as the causal factor and that greater income equality follows. If what you mean to say is income equality changes when a society is crushed by an outside invader or some other external force we have some agreement. Thus changing the last statement to:

"Regardless of the level of wealth between the rich and poor, economic systems will change over time."

Might give you a meaningful statement. Yours currently reads as "Whenever a contestant is sufficiently bad to get boo'd off the stage on American Idol, the sun will come up the next morning."


Wrong, and more of your usual pedantic shenanigans.

Income inequality is a causal factor in the ruin of a civilization. Governments know this and sometimes act to prevent the people from becoming too unhappy. Sometimes, they don't and people rise up. Sometimes the society simply declines as a result of it, making it weaker until it dissolves or is conquered. There are a lot of possible results, but the one thing for certain is that a civilization cannot sustain itself forever when it continues to oppress its people through poverty, debt peonage, or wage slavery. Society cannot be productive and strong when its people are crushed, no matter how much money the "job creators" have.

Libertarians of your ilk seem to have adopted a "let them eat cake" position on the matter, and I don't think that tends to work out very well.
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Re: So who's getting Obamacare?

Postby Frag » Sun Dec 15, 2013 5:22 pm

Nevermind.
Jude Terror wrote:I'll vote for NPWFBH in the next election.


Outhouse Post #1,000,000:

Frag It wrote::smt117


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Re: So who's getting Obamacare?

Postby S.F. Jude Terror » Sun Dec 15, 2013 5:30 pm

Now I want to know what you said.
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Re: So who's getting Obamacare?

Postby syxxpakk » Sun Dec 15, 2013 5:30 pm

Rome wasn't the cause of Alexander's fall.
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When you're as good as Chael, you can only call out people worse than you.


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Re: So who's getting Obamacare?

Postby Frag » Sun Dec 15, 2013 5:33 pm

S.F. Jude Terror wrote:Now I want to know what you said.


I thought when he mentioned the Macedonian Empire, he was talking about Alexander's Empire, not the Macedonian Empire after him.
Jude Terror wrote:I'll vote for NPWFBH in the next election.


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Frag It wrote::smt117


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Re: So who's getting Obamacare?

Postby S.F. Jude Terror » Sun Dec 15, 2013 5:34 pm

Spektre wrote:

"Now it (capitalism) drives our entire economy, which itself is little more than an organized system of extracting wealth from the poor and giving it to the rich. That can't possibly go on forever."


Just a correction here to your interpretation - debt.
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Re: So who's getting Obamacare?

Postby Spektre » Sun Dec 15, 2013 10:24 pm

S.F. Jude Terror wrote:
Wrong, and more of your usual pedantic shenanigans.

Income inequality is a causal factor in the ruin of a civilization. Governments know this and sometimes act to prevent the people from becoming too unhappy. Sometimes, they don't and people rise up. Sometimes the society simply declines as a result of it, making it weaker until it dissolves or is conquered. There are a lot of possible results, but the one thing for certain is that a civilization cannot sustain itself forever when it continues to oppress its people through poverty, debt peonage, or wage slavery. Society cannot be productive and strong when its people are crushed, no matter how much money the "job creators" have.

Libertarians of your ilk seem to have adopted a "let them eat cake" position on the matter, and I don't think that tends to work out very well.


Once again, you can keep stating it if it makes you feel better, but your lack of empirical evidence really speaks for itself.

Income inequality is not a causal factor in the fall of civilizations as a rule. A I mentioned before, abject poverty might be a closer approximation.

As a simple example, two income distributions:

Distribution 1: Top quintile $40,000 Bottom quintile $8,000
Distribution 2: Top quintile $250,000 Bottom quintile $14,000

Distribution 2 is far more inequitable and far more stable long term.
- Continuity is or it is not. There is no such thing as soft continuity.
- A character IS his continuity.
- Continuity is consistency of the characteristics of people, plot, objects, and places seen by the reader or viewer.

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Re: So who's getting Obamacare?

Postby Spektre » Sun Dec 15, 2013 10:24 pm

S.F. Jude Terror wrote:
Just a correction here to your interpretation - debt.


Not sure what your reply is trying to say. This is your quote.
- Continuity is or it is not. There is no such thing as soft continuity.
- A character IS his continuity.
- Continuity is consistency of the characteristics of people, plot, objects, and places seen by the reader or viewer.

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Re: So who's getting Obamacare?

Postby S.F. Jude Terror » Sun Dec 15, 2013 10:46 pm

Spektre wrote:
Not sure what your reply is trying to say. This is your quote.


You inserted the word capitalism into parentheses, but what I was referring to driving the economy is debt, or more specifically, forcing debt onto people and in some cases entire nations, as a means of extracting wealth.

As for the evidence, I've offered you an entire book on this exact subject. I'd suggest you read it if you're really interested. It would be silly for me to try to recap in message board posts what someone has already said better in an entire book.

After all, I've watched your youtube videos. If you're actually interested in understanding a viewpoint contrary to yours, you can read it, but it's my feeling that you're not interested in any such thing. Feel free to prove me wrong.
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Re: So who's getting Obamacare?

Postby Frag » Sun Dec 15, 2013 11:05 pm

Inequality implies that the lower side is poor.

Yes, there probably wouldn't be a revolution if the top 1% were making $10 million while the bottom 1% were making $500K.

There are some things that don't need to be said.

The French Revolution was about inequality. It's pretty simple.
Jude Terror wrote:I'll vote for NPWFBH in the next election.


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Frag It wrote::smt117


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Re: So who's getting Obamacare?

Postby Spektre » Mon Dec 16, 2013 1:29 am

S.F. Jude Terror wrote:
You inserted the word capitalism into parentheses, but what I was referring to driving the economy is debt, or more specifically, forcing debt onto people and in some cases entire nations, as a means of extracting wealth.

As for the evidence, I've offered you an entire book on this exact subject. I'd suggest you read it if you're really interested. It would be silly for me to try to recap in message board posts what someone has already said better in an entire book.

After all, I've watched your youtube videos. If you're actually interested in understanding a viewpoint contrary to yours, you can read it, but it's my feeling that you're not interested in any such thing. Feel free to prove me wrong.


If this viewpoint s worthy of my time, you should easily be able to point to every case of income inequality and show it lead to revolution. If not, I think I have aptly shown your point false.
- Continuity is or it is not. There is no such thing as soft continuity.
- A character IS his continuity.
- Continuity is consistency of the characteristics of people, plot, objects, and places seen by the reader or viewer.

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Re: So who's getting Obamacare?

Postby Spektre » Mon Dec 16, 2013 1:30 am

ReturnoftheMack wrote:Inequality implies that the lower side is poor.

Yes, there probably wouldn't be a revolution if the top 1% were making $10 million while the bottom 1% were making $500K.

There are some things that don't need to be said.

The French Revolution was about inequality. It's pretty simple.


Inequity means no such thing.

There are many things that don't need to be said, however the central point isn't one of them.
You have conceded income inequity is not the source of revolution or the collapse of civilization. Maybe pass that along to Jude.

Again as you seem to grasp income inequality also does not lead to poverty. Sometimes, quite the opposite, despite the socialists' desires.
- Continuity is or it is not. There is no such thing as soft continuity.
- A character IS his continuity.
- Continuity is consistency of the characteristics of people, plot, objects, and places seen by the reader or viewer.

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Re: So who's getting Obamacare?

Postby S.F. Jude Terror » Mon Dec 16, 2013 2:44 am

Spektre wrote:
If this viewpoint s worthy of my time, you should easily be able to point to every case of income inequality and show it lead to revolution. If not, I think I have aptly shown your point false.


Except I never said that every case of wealth inequality leads to revolution, I said it's unsustainable and could lead to revolution (as Frag It pointed out, the French revolution), or to other consequences, such as the government willingly redistributing wealth to prevent unrest (to ask for examples of this is silly, it has happened pretty much constantly since the dawn of civilization). To continue to extract wealth from the poor and give it to the rich (as has undeniably been happening in our society) is unsustainable, and I would suggest you read a book on it rather than ask me to explain thousands of years of human history to you. I can recommend one.
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