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So who's getting Obamacare?

What will you be doing once Obamacare takes effect?

I will be keeping my current plan.
26
67%
I will be signing up for a new plan under Obamacare.
6
15%
I will be losing my insurance.
1
3%
I don't have insurance now and will continue to not have it.
3
8%
I am a US Senator or major corporation so I am exempt.
3
8%
  Total votes : 39

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Nobama

Postby Nobama » Thu Oct 03, 2013 10:43 am

I don't deny that Obamacare is going to help a lot of people in very bad situations, however the majority of people who are going to benefit from it are those that already do nothing, who plan to manipulate the way it's set up and are of the belief that everything should just be handed to them by their government while everyone else incurs the expense.
User avatar

S.F. Jude Terror

OMCTO

Postby S.F. Jude Terror » Thu Oct 03, 2013 10:47 am

Lionel Terror wrote:I don't deny that Obamacare is going to help a lot of people in very bad situations, however the majority of people who are going to benefit from it are those that already do nothing, who plan to manipulate the way it's set up and are of the belief that everything should just be handed to them by their government while everyone else incurs the expense.



You mean by just paying the fine until they need coverage, then signing up? That's possible, but a single payer would take care of that. :P
User avatar

Spektre

FROGMAN

Postby Spektre » Thu Oct 03, 2013 11:03 am

Regulator wrote:
With the brainlessness of the current crop of Republicans and the mindless drones they've converted by seeming magic like yourself, it feels like we're already there.


Not at all my friend. Some of us out here still believe in free thought and personal responsibility. But that's OK, go in peace. I'm sure someone out there will want to take care of you. Just be prepared for when they tell you you can't think like you want to anymore.
User avatar

Spektre

FROGMAN

Postby Spektre » Thu Oct 03, 2013 11:06 am

Lionel Terror wrote:Correction, for all of you who don't really understand what Obamacare is for, how it's really going to work and what it's going to do to this country.

Its for those people who dont have insurance because they never wanted to pay for it in the first place, who still intend to not purchase it for themselves moving forward and who are going to manipulate the "fine" for not purchasing healthcare in their favor just as Obama intends it to be manipulated.

Obamacare has been created as a way to make people who contribute to society even more financially responsible for those who refuse to carry their own weight....a mass of people that is only going to continue to bloat so long as they keep thinking the government is going to take care of them (just as they think currently).

Ask yourself how the cost is going to be paid for when all those people, who still don't buy healthinsurance and simply plan to incur the "penalty", go in for service? The cost is simply going to be passed on to decent hard working people in the form of higher premiums and income taxes.

It was created only to make the current work force pay even more than they already do for the leeches. Oh yeah, and to assure that those leeches keep voting the way they already do because they are being "taken care of".

Thanks libs! Thanks for causing the beginning of the collapse of western society.


Agreed with everything except the implication that Obamacare is the "beginning" of the collapse. (That wasn't what was said however and I agree with the exact wording.)
User avatar

Spektre

FROGMAN

Postby Spektre » Thu Oct 03, 2013 11:08 am

S.F. Jude Terror wrote:I have to agree with Achilles that it's rather confusing. I'm going to have to find some time to really sit down and go through all the data on that website, which is not very clear.

Lionel, it's a great myth that the government wants to redistribute wealth to poor people. What it really wants to do is extract wealth from the poor and the middle class and give it to the super rich. This is done through shitloads of debt, which dwarfs any amount redistributed through health care costs.


Not a myth Jude. Government wants to extract wealth from any source it can get it hands on. However in order to continue doing that it needs to get itself reelected. The cheapest votes to be bought are at the low end of the economic spectrum.
User avatar

Spektre

FROGMAN

Postby Spektre » Thu Oct 03, 2013 11:10 am

S.F. Jude Terror wrote:
Agreed on all those points. And honestly, while I understand it really pisses off people who get sweet plans from their employers (and the number of people who do have been dwindling for years, by the way, before Obamacare was conceived), I would be happy with a single payer option that just ensured everyone, even if it was a downgrade for some, and the option to pay out the ass for private insurance if you're a millionaire, or maybe take a voucher from the government and go private if you want, because I know from experience that it really sucks to live without insurance and not be able to afford it, and I actually make a decent salary, comparatively.


Oh Jude Jude.... There was such hope for you.

Statist.

Nobama

Postby Nobama » Thu Oct 03, 2013 11:35 am

S.F. Jude Terror wrote:

You mean by just paying the fine until they need coverage, then signing up? That's possible, but a single payer would take care of that. :P

I'm not sure we're talking about the same thing.

People who dont have the coverage are going to be treated regardless. They arent going to be turned away when they need some kind of health care. The bill is then going to go to Uncle Sam, or should I say everyone else.

The penalty that person then faces is a progressive income based "tax". Its not even a fixed income based tax. People with lower incomes face a lesser sliding based percentage penalty than those who earn more. If someone opts out of purchasing coverage they are penalized based on their income. Someone who makes $25k per year would only be penalized something like $50. Someone who makes $350k would be penalized something like $3,500.

Yes the "penalty" will rise from year to year, progressively, but there is a cap on the progressive penalty, so it can only ever be so high.

If you were a lazy leech what do you think your choice would be here.....buy health insurance or be "horribly" "penalized" like $30-$40 a year for not having it?

There's no motivation there to earn more or better your situation, just like the way wellfare currently works.

The Old Doctor

Postby The Old Doctor » Thu Oct 03, 2013 11:36 am

I missed these types of slap fights. :-D

What slays me is that it appears that the problems with Obamacare is not Obamacare itself, but how in someways, it works. Or really does not work for the best to help people.

Just fix it instead of grandstanding. It's so sad to see this be the crux of so many problems in America these days.
User avatar

achilles

Rain Partier

Postby achilles » Thu Oct 03, 2013 11:56 am

The whole healthcare situation, plus the general political disfunction, (I blame both parties), has me wondering if I wouldn't just be better off leaving for some other, hopefully saner country.

I'm losing hope for this country.
User avatar

Spektre

FROGMAN

Postby Spektre » Thu Oct 03, 2013 11:58 am

Cat-Scratch wrote:I missed these types of slap fights. :-D

What slays me is that it appears that the problems with Obamacare is not Obamacare itself, but how in someways, it works. Or really does not work for the best to help people.

Just fix it instead of grandstanding. It's so sad to see this be the crux of so many problems in America these days.


Cat,

You're only seeing half the problem. Obamacare has two levels of problems.

1. It is very flawed in its implementation. It was hastily drafted, not vetted, and passed Unconstitutionally. All of these things, as you note, can be tweaked and corrected.

2. Its premise is flawed. The premise that individuals have the RIGHT to the fruits of another's labor. This cannot be fixed.
User avatar

Spektre

FROGMAN

Postby Spektre » Thu Oct 03, 2013 11:59 am

achilles wrote:The whole healthcare situation, plus the general political disfunction, (I blame both parties), has me wondering if I wouldn't just be better off leaving for some other, hopefully saner country.

I'm losing hope for this country.


We were the last, best hope for freedom Achilles. I'm not for staying on sinking ship either, unless there are no other ships nor any land to jump to.
User avatar

S.F. Jude Terror

OMCTO

Postby S.F. Jude Terror » Thu Oct 03, 2013 12:56 pm

Spektre wrote:
Cat,

You're only seeing half the problem. Obamacare has two levels of problems.

1. It is very flawed in its implementation. It was hastily drafted, not vetted, and passed Unconstitutionally. All of these things, as you note, can be tweaked and corrected.

2. Its premise is flawed. The premise that individuals have the RIGHT to the fruits of another's labor. This cannot be fixed.


The every man for himself ideal of modern free market capitalism is what's flawed. The concept that the pinnacle of morality is finance, that the ultimate sin is not paying or being able to pay for all one needs, and that the inherent worth of human beings is based on their ability to produce profit is a fallacy that's been drilled into the people of this country by the bankers and 1%ers whose interest it serves. The fact is, human civilization has always, to some extent, been socialist. David Graeber writes about it in his book, Debt: The First 5000 Years, a great read. Here's some of the ideas he talks about:

When the need is very great, or the request very small, human beings revert to communism. For instance, if someone asks you for directions on the street, you don't ask them, "what's it worth to you?" You give them the directions, because the request made of you is small. Likewise, if you see someone in a burning car about to explode, you might pull them out of it, but you wouldn't say, "now you owe me money for saving your life." The need was very great, and you are willing to pitch in, even though you're not being compensated fairly for your work. You might say "the reward is helping someone in need," but the fact is, as a human being, it is a fundamental desire to help other human beings.

We saw this during World War 2, when people pitched in all around the country to help out the soldiers who were fighting overseas. We see it when a disaster occurs and people pitch in to help. Human beings want to help each other. The Ayn Randian "every man for himself" idea is what's unnatural, and its purpose is to prop up the free market capitalist empire of the United States, which uses its economic and military power to exact tribute and extract wealth from the rest of the world through debt, both by assigning debt to third world countries and forcing them to pay it, and by allowing other developed nations to purchase debt from the United States that we never intend to pay. This system requires the lie that it's every man for himself and that profit is the ultimate pinnacle of morality in order to work. As soon as someone realizes that, maybe, not paying their "debt" isn't such a bad and immoral thing, the whole system falls apart. Not for regular people, who would probably be better off. For the people who have the most to lose: the obscenely rich, the banks, the corporations.

With our families, we're communists. I don't make my daughters pay me for providing them with dinner. I work, they eat. With our friends, we're communists, perhaps to a lesser degree. We'll happily share food, goods, work (in the form of favor) with them to some extent. We're somewhat like this with our communities, then our states, then our countries. As human beings feel connected to each other, they share things, and I don't think it's unreasonable to share the cost of healthcare, and it doesn't make us socialists. As throughout all of human history, we're a a mixture of communism and capitalism, and that's the way it should be.

Now, whether government is the best way to ensure this happens, I don't know, and i think Obamacare is a deeply flawed, toothless bill that only serves to prop up the current broken system. The capitalist in me will sign up for it though, if it costs me less money than getting insurance privately.

But your balls to the wall hardcore capitalist attitude is just ridiculous. No one is really like that, unless they live in the woods and don't associate with any other human beings. We're part of a society and we make concessions to our individual needs and desires for the better of that society, to some reasonable extent, and hopefully with some kind of reasonable consensus (which used to be a lot easier before the powers that be realized that they could distract people with endless ideological and class warfare over "liberalism" and "conservativism" that's ultimately meaningless and just serves to allow the rich to continue extracting wealth from the poor.

I used to be like you, Spektre, though never quite as crazy. I saw the light. It's not too late for you.
User avatar

Spektre

FROGMAN

Postby Spektre » Thu Oct 03, 2013 1:01 pm

S.F. Jude Terror wrote:
The every man for himself ideal of modern free market capitalism is what's flawed. The concept that the pinnacle of morality is finance, that the ultimate sin is not paying or being able to pay for all one needs, and that the inherent worth of human beings is based on their ability to produce profit is a fallacy that's been drilled into the people of this country by the bankers and 1%ers whose interest it serves. The fact is, human civilization has always, to some extent, been socialist. David Graeber writes about it in his book, Debt: The First 5000 Years, a great read. Here's some of the ideas he talks about:

When the need is very great, or the request very small, human beings revert to communism. For instance, if someone asks you for directions on the street, you don't ask them, "what's it worth to you?" You give them the directions, because the request made of you is small. Likewise, if you see someone in a burning car about to explode, you might pull them out of it, but you wouldn't say, "now you owe me money for saving your life." The need was very great, and you are willing to pitch in, even though you're not being compensated fairly for your work. You might say "the reward is helping someone in need," but the fact is, as a human being, it is a fundamental desire to help other human beings.

We saw this during World War 2, when people pitched in all around the country to help out the soldiers who were fighting overseas. We see it when a disaster occurs and people pitch in to help. Human beings want to help each other. The Ayn Randian "every man for himself" idea is what's unnatural, and its purpose is to prop up the free market capitalist empire of the United States, which uses its economic and military power to exact tribute and extract wealth from the rest of the world through debt, both by assigning debt to third world countries and forcing them to pay it, and by allowing other developed nations to purchase debt from the United States that we never intend to pay. This system requires the lie that it's every man for himself and that profit is the ultimate pinnacle of morality in order to work. As soon as someone realizes that, maybe, not paying their "debt" isn't such a bad and immoral thing, the whole system falls apart. Not for regular people, who would probably be better off. For the people who have the most to lose: the obscenely rich, the banks, the corporations.

With our families, we're communists. I don't make my daughters pay me for providing them with dinner. I work, they eat. With our friends, we're communists, perhaps to a lesser degree. We'll happily share food, goods, work (in the form of favor) with them to some extent. We're somewhat like this with our communities, then our states, then our countries. As human beings feel connected to each other, they share things, and I don't think it's unreasonable to share the cost of healthcare, and it doesn't make us socialists. As throughout all of human history, we're a a mixture of communism and capitalism, and that's the way it should be.

Now, whether government is the best way to ensure this happens, I don't know, and i think Obamacare is a deeply flawed, toothless bill that only serves to prop up the current broken system. The capitalist in me will sign up for it though, if it costs me less money than getting insurance privately.

But your balls to the wall hardcore capitalist attitude is just ridiculous. No one is really like that, unless they live in the woods and don't associate with any other human beings. We're part of a society and we make concessions to our individual needs and desires for the better of that society, to some reasonable extent, and hopefully with some kind of reasonable consensus (which used to be a lot easier before the powers that be realized that they could distract people with endless ideological and class warfare over "liberalism" and "conservativism" that's ultimately meaningless and just serves to allow the rich to continue extracting wealth from the poor.

I used to be like you, Spektre, though never quite as crazy. I saw the light. It's not too late for you.



Oh how the mighty have fallen with half truths and rationalizations.
User avatar

BlueStreak

The Red Stands for Irony

Postby BlueStreak » Thu Oct 03, 2013 1:02 pm

Jude, it shames me what a liberal you've turned into.

The problem with Graeber's premise is that he's handling stuff like family all wrong. I don't feed my daughter for free because it's the human thing to do, it's an investment that I plan on recouping when I sell her on the market, or collect payment from her husband to be.

I'd go on, but I really just wanted to be the first person to call you a dirty liberal, and blab on about how much you've changed and try to shame you somehow.
User avatar

S.F. Jude Terror

OMCTO

Postby S.F. Jude Terror » Thu Oct 03, 2013 1:12 pm

Spektre wrote:

Oh how the mighty have fallen with half truths and rationalizations.


Good comeback, bro.

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