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[Benderbrau]

[BubbaKanoosh]

[Strict31]

I don't care how you cut it, Luke was SUPPOSED to take on Vader AND the Emperor.

Only a fully trained Jedi KNight, with the Force as his ally, can defeat Vader and his Emperor if I recall correctly. Or are you seriously contending that Luke was only supposed to take on Vader? That makes no sense.

Luke was meant to end the rule of the Sith and he was utterly unprepared for it. There is no way after seeing the prequels that Yoda or Obi-Wan could have possibly believed that Luke was remotely capable of taking on the Emperor.

And it wasn't a stalemate with Yoda and the Emperor (but that would have actually made it worse because why wouldn't he then come back to finish the job, this time with Obi-Wan, instead of hiding for 20 years).

You can slice it however you want. The dialogue is clear, however. Nobody sent him to kill Vader and the Emperor. They told him he had to confront Vader in order to become a Jedi Knight. They never sent him to face Vader and the Emperor.

You may assume whatever you wish, but that dwells in the realm of speculation. We can assume that at some point Luke will have to face the Emperor. But Yoda also tells him before he dies to pass on what he has learned. So, you could just as easily assume it was Yoda's intent that Luke train some Jedi allies (for example, Leia) before taking on the Emperor.

Or, you could assume that they wanted him to focus on Vader, because that's exactly what they told him to do.

Luke chose to surrender himself to Vader.

Vader brought him before the Emperor.

This is how Luke found himself facing both Vader and the Emperor.

This is both explicitly stated in the movie as well as clearly shown.

[Strict31]

That was the whole point in Empire and why Luke got his ass kicked hard. He didn't have enough training. And what training he did get was the cheat sheet guide from Obi-Wan and Yoda's was just a more aggressive guide. No lightsaber training at all. Just kid you can move any object when using the force. Oh and don't give into your emotions. BAM!

It takes Luke five minutes to learn how to deflect laser bolts from the training remote on the falcon in ANH. And that's with a helmet covering his eyes.

By the time he takes on Vader the first time, Vader might be toying with the boy, but he does make a mistake and let's Luke chop him right in the shoulder. If Vader hadn't been all cybered up and covered in armor, that's a strike that may have taken a flesh and blood arm right the fuck off.

With the Force, it's not a matter of skill. It's a matter of control. Luke wasn't ready for that battle because he had learned very little control over the Force, and over himself.

The reason they take Padawans at such a young age is to discourage attachment to their parents and friends and other loved ones outside the temple. You know the whole idea in martial arts of emptying the glass before it can be filled? Their glasses are already empty when they are that young.

The problem with Luke at the age of 23, was that his glass was filled with a whole bunch of shit.

[Strict31]

See, when I first saw the movies, it could make sense. Sure, it was going to be tough for Luke to defeat Vader, but there was a chance. Vader was more cyborg, he was older, and Luke had that whole righteous fire thing going.

The Emperor (without knowledge of the prequels) seemed to be more of a manipulator rather than a powerful SIth lord. SO when he pulls the lightning bolt schtick, it's a surprise. I even wondered whether Yoda or Obi-Wan knew of the Emperor's true powers.

But after watching the prequels, THERE IS NO WAY IN HELL they could have thought that Luke stood any chance against the Emperor AND Vader. Not a chance in hell. That motherfucker was doing triple sow cows or however the fuck you spell it and taking out Jedi MASTERS left and right when he was already an old as fuck Chancellor. Whether Luke threw down his lightsaber or not, there was no way he could have won.

Agreed. There is no way they could have thought Luke could succeed against both the Emperor and vader.

Which is why they didn't ever once tell him he had to fight the Emperor and Vader.

[False Prophet]

I guess I shouldn't have expected more of the Jedi after Episode 1, considering they had no problem allowing slavery, rape, and all forms of douchebaggery throughout the universe. Exactly what was their point? To ultimately defend the status quo, no matter how morally ineptitude it might be?

At this point I feel like I'm beating a dead horse with the bashing, but the prequels kinda opened the door by trying to go from point A to point C by going through the number 8. One day I'm going to read the novels and find out what really makes sense.

[Dragavon]

I guess I shouldn't have expected more of the Jedi after Episode 1, considering they had no problem allowing slavery, rape, and all forms of douchebaggery throughout the universe. Exactly what was their point? To ultimately defend the status quo, no matter how morally ineptitude it might be?

At this point I feel like I'm beating a dead horse with the bashing, but the prequels kinda opened the door by trying to go from point A to point C by going through the number 8. One day I'm going to read the novels and find out what really makes sense.

I've read a lot of the novels. Most writers try and work within the guidelines set out by Lucas, so the pre-New Republic Jedi's come of as some major douches.

Even the Luke's new Jedi order makes a decision to ignore slavery until some slaves start dying.

[Strict31]

I guess I shouldn't have expected more of the Jedi after Episode 1, considering they had no problem allowing slavery, rape, and all forms of douchebaggery throughout the universe. Exactly what was their point? To ultimately defend the status quo, no matter how morally ineptitude it might be?

At this point I feel like I'm beating a dead horse with the bashing, but the prequels kinda opened the door by trying to go from point A to point C by going through the number 8. One day I'm going to read the novels and find out what really makes sense.

The point is that the Jedi are flawed. Whatever other fuck-ups Lucas made with the series, there's one thing he made clear about the fall of the Old Republic for years: it was bloated and corrupt. it was flawed and complacent. The Jedi were part of that complacency. The chaff has to be cleared away.

Now, if you look at KotOR, set several thousand years before the movies, there's a devastating war with the mandalorians, see? The republic obviously gets involved and wants the Jedi as their allies. But the Jedi shine them on and say, "Nah, this is your problem, bro."

But the mandies are unquestionably bad. They are raping entire planets in the bootyhole. So why don't the Jedi intervene?

Fear.

Just like I pointed out before.

War means killing. Mercy very often means defeat, so the warrior must be decisive and ruthless with his enemy. I mean, look at Vietnam, with the idea of "we had to burn the village to save the village." Even in Afganistan and Iraq, the military operated with the idea of denying the insurgents access to civilian resources.

Then, look at "collateral damage." It's unavoidable in most instances. Even as far back as Okinawa, US forces started bombing civilians because the japanese were using them as human shields. The Brits firebombed Dresden to shatter enemy morale. The Soviets raped a shit ton of german women when they took berlin.

Because war is pretty much hell, the warfighter always runs the risk of becoming a monster. This is even easier when you think of your enemy as a monster. you have to become monstrous to defeat a monster.

For any soldier, it is a challenge to contain their hatred for the enemy. And many fail. Even some of the nicest guys you might know in civilian life can become consumed by hatred in war, if a friend dies. Or if they see the enemy stabbing babies or raping women.

For a Jedi, succumbing to hatred is an even greater danger, because most regular soldiers can't choke a bitch just by thinking hard in that direction. This is the greatest danger a jedi can face. At least, according to their dogma.

So, the jedi stayed out of the mandalorian war because of fear of succumbing to hatred. And maybe they were right, because Revan and a bunch of rogue Jedi did join the fight, and the Dark Side made sweet love to them. There were some other key factors involved in that, but still. War made them vulnerable to hatred. And hatred took root.

So, since then, the Jedi had grown more and more hands-off. Freeing the slaves would cause static with the Hutt Syndicates. And since most of those fuckers are criminal scum, that would turn into a bloodbath. So, they don't free the slaves, because of fear. They sit in their temple negotiating trade agreements with corrupt business conglomerates instead of putting boot to ass because of fear.

They are afraid to confront that fear, and instead, shove it aside and try to ignore it. They try to resist it without ever realizing they must embrace it in order to conquer it...because fear is fucking natural!

The jedi are kinda like the Vulcans in that respect. The Vulcans had a terrible history in which they succumbed to their darkest emotions. Now, they repress those emotions. But what happens? Their control is always cracking. Spock flips out and starts laughing and throwing soup at Chapel. T'Pol starts rubbing her ass against Trip in Decon.

it's the same with the Jedi. repression of fear makes them even more vulnerable to it, because unlike someone who willfully confronts and understands his fear, the jedi have no way to fight it. And they don't even realize this shit.

So, they are outmoded. They need to be selected for extinction, just like the Sith, who take the opposite extreme. It's all gotta fall down before it can be properly rebuilt.

[Benderbrau]

All continuity aside the prequels gave us some bad ass Jedi fights. The sooner Lucas realize that's pretty much all people give a shit about the sooner Clone Wars gets interesting.

[Zechs]

All continuity aside the prequels gave us some bad ass Jedi fights. The sooner Lucas realize that's pretty much all people give a shit about the sooner Clone Wars gets interesting.

I think he's prepping for just that. I mean look how many people wielding freaking lighsabers on that show now. You have three Dark siders (Dooku, Ventress, and Kurgan) plus possibly surprise Sith Lord, and Grievous.

[Zechs]

Agreed. There is no way they could have thought Luke could succeed against both the Emperor and vader.

Which is why they didn't ever once tell him he had to fight the Emperor and Vader.

Plus Yoda straining on his death bed the fact that you don't underestimate the powers of the Emperor.

[Doc Jon]

Agreed. There is no way they could have thought Luke could succeed against both the Emperor and vader.

Which is why they didn't ever once tell him he had to fight the Emperor and Vader.

I disagree. I believe it is heavily implied that it's his purpose. Again they basically say it in Empire I believe. The whole 'only a fully trained Jedi Knight with the Force as his ally can hope to defeat Vader and his Emperor...'

ANd what would be the purpose of only defeating Vader? The Emperor was obviously the true power and certainly capable of getting yet another apprentice as he demonstrated over and over. Obviously Luke's mandate is defeat them both. For him to only defeat Vader is kinda pointless and makes little sense.

[Strict31]

I disagree. I believe it is heavily implied that it's his purpose. Again they basically say it in Empire I believe. The whole 'only a fully trained Jedi Knight with the Force as his ally can hope to defeat Vader and his Emperor...'

ANd what would be the purpose of only defeating Vader? The Emperor was obviously the true power and certainly capable of getting yet another apprentice as he demonstrated over and over. Obviously Luke's mandate is defeat them both. For him to only defeat Vader is kinda pointless and makes little sense.

You can feel free to disagree and read into it whatever you wish. But the fact remains, the dialogue does not support your claim.

Shit, I really don't get why you're still arguing this. The movie does not say what you thought it said. It's not like I'm making this shit up. Watch the movie again, bro. It's right there. They do not send him to face off with both Vader and the Emperor. They never do that. And they never say he has to do that.

It's in the movie.

We have no idea what their plan for Luke and the Emperor was, because neither of them mention confronting the Emperor. The so say "Don't underestimate the power of the Dark Side." They do say, "Pass on what you have learned."

If you're seeking any implications from the actual dialogue, perhaps you might consider that Yoda wanted Luke to build up a new Jedi Order before taking on the Emperor. Given what they actually say in the movie, that seems a reasonable assumption. But ultimately, we don't know, because again, Ben and Yoda don't tell him to go and face down the Emperor and Vader at the same time. That's something that never happens in the movie at all.

[oogy]

A little off topic here but, what EU novels/comics would everyone recommend? I'm about halfway through the last book fo the Darth Bane trilogy and really like it. I'm thinking about getting the Tales of the Jedi omnibus from Dark Horse, but the reviews seem really mixed.

[False Prophet]