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Batwoman and Morrison's Great Ten

Well, are ya?

Batwoman
0
No votes
Great Ten
2
25%
Both
3
38%
Neither
2
25%
They're both a ploy at tokenism, nothing more
1
13%
  Total votes : 8

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User avatar

Keb

<( ' . ' )>

Postby Keb » Thu Jun 01, 2006 11:42 am

She's running the league of assassins because Shiva's joined the Birds?
User avatar

trachman

Wishes he was as cool as Lord Simian

Postby trachman » Thu Jun 01, 2006 1:26 pm

Keb wrote:She's running the league of assassins because Shiva's joined the Birds?
Hasn't been answered yet.
User avatar

trachman

Wishes he was as cool as Lord Simian

Postby trachman » Thu Jun 01, 2006 6:54 pm

Batwoman is getting alot of mainstream attention. Bet Marvels wishing they had the publicity, but instead Marvel swepted the whole gay theme under the carpet.
User avatar

Lord Simian

The Lord of the Monkeys

Postby Lord Simian » Thu Jun 01, 2006 8:00 pm

trachman wrote:Batwoman is getting alot of mainstream attention. Bet Marvels wishing they had the publicity, but instead Marvel swepted the whole gay theme under the carpet.


When, exactly? The last time they had a gay character come out, The Rawhide Kid, and Joey Q was on several news shows and morning talk shows? Or when they introduced the first openly gay character in mainstream comics, Northstar? :-D
User avatar

trachman

Wishes he was as cool as Lord Simian

Postby trachman » Thu Jun 01, 2006 8:39 pm

Lord Simian wrote:
When, exactly? The last time they had a gay character come out, The Rawhide Kid, and Joey Q was on several news shows and morning talk shows? Or when they introduced the first openly gay character in mainstream comics, Northstar? :-D
Yeah, but Northstar is who knows where, and new Rawhide kid series is a MAX title. So, the argument could go either way.
User avatar

Lord Simian

The Lord of the Monkeys

Postby Lord Simian » Thu Jun 01, 2006 9:02 pm

trachman wrote:Yeah, but Northstar is who knows where, and new Rawhide kid series is a MAX title. So, the argument could go either way.


But neither was "swept under the carpet", they were trumpeted in the mainstream media, just like this... :-)
User avatar

L Independant

25 To Life

Postby L Independant » Thu Jun 01, 2006 10:31 pm

If it were an X-Men, or if it were Spider-Girl, then you'd have the attention. But Marvel has had relatively obscure gay characters, in pop media's eyes. This one has a bat signal on her breasts.
User avatar

Keb

<( ' . ' )>

Postby Keb » Thu Jun 01, 2006 11:02 pm

Honestly, if people think DC announcing this is a big thing, then think twice. I think it's idiotic that they're trying to make press by announcing that they're coming up with a homosexual character.

Marvel didn't jump up and say "READ UNCANNY X-MEN BECAUSE IT'S GOT FLAMING GAY NORTHSTAR IN IT!"
User avatar

nietoperz

The Goddamn Bat-min

Postby nietoperz » Fri Jun 02, 2006 12:03 am

Keb wrote:Honestly, if people think DC announcing this is a big thing, then think twice. I think it's idiotic that they're trying to make press by announcing that they're coming up with a homosexual character.

Marvel didn't jump up and say "READ UNCANNY X-MEN BECAUSE IT'S GOT FLAMING GAY NORTHSTAR IN IT!"


Their mistake - they should be less squeamish. If DC can attract a more diverse group of readers by doing this then they're doing a good thing. Remember: Quesada said in a recent Joe Fridays that he doesn't believe that the marketplace could sustain a book featuring a gay main character. I think DC are going to prove him very wrong.
User avatar

Keb

<( ' . ' )>

Postby Keb » Fri Jun 02, 2006 12:16 am

Yeah, but it's the same tactic as having a black character in the 60s. Look at where that's gone.

Minorities shouldn't be used to sell comics.
User avatar

nietoperz

The Goddamn Bat-min

Postby nietoperz » Fri Jun 02, 2006 12:27 am

Keb wrote:Yeah, but it's the same tactic as having a black character in the 60s. Look at where that's gone.

Minorities shouldn't be used to sell comics.


I agree with that, but at the same time diversity has to be a good thing, no?
User avatar

Keb

<( ' . ' )>

Postby Keb » Fri Jun 02, 2006 3:17 am

Diversity is a wonderful thing, but using it to get sales is like pulling the race card to get acquitted of a crime you've committed.
User avatar

L Independant

25 To Life

Postby L Independant » Fri Jun 02, 2006 9:49 am

See, that's the thing about diversity. A lot of people believe it's a good thing. A lot of others say, let's look at people as people, and not by what quota they fill (which can be tokenism, or at the same time, can be a way these people perpetrate the status quo, or a trust in people to be better than they are by ignoring the labels we put on ourselves).

Keb's right...diversity shouldn't be exploited for profits. At the same time, DC or Marvel shouldn't be adding characters out of a conciousness that "Oh my gosh, we're too white!" That's tokenism. Now they've got their gay superhero, and all is well, right? And now they're bringing in Asian characters. They've had a disabled character (Oracle), and black characters (ex. John Stewart). And all is good, right?

It's a fine line to tred. Fans were asking about diversity, especially since Arana came about at Marvel, but even before that. That DC went with the hot button issue first (homosexuality) to seemingly get press for what they're doing sickens me.
User avatar

kingbobb

Great Scott!!!

Postby kingbobb » Fri Jun 02, 2006 10:43 am

It's sort of a lose-lose situation. You want to have stories that reflect your audience, and perhaps reach out to those that might not normally be your audience. But you don't want to look like you're doing it just for the marketing. But at the heart of it, that's what your doing, using a minority character to see if there's a market for it.

Without all the media hype, this would probably be seens as a cool move...like we don't find out about her sexual preference until it comes up in the story. But since there's been a big news story...and we have to assume the info was given out ahead of time by DC on purpose, in order to generate a little hype and free publicity...it looks like exploitation. Which of course it is.

A good example of having a lesbian character without the hype was Elizabeth Rohm's character on Law & Order. It's a show I don't watch, so I don't know her character's name, but she was also on Angel (as Kate Lockley). On her last episode of Law & Order she asks if she's being fired because she's a lesbian. The show had done nothing to indicate one way or another anything at all about her personal sexual preference. There was no big publicity announcement ahead of time. It was just part of the natural course of things. Not a big deal.

Which is the way it should be. Is anyone really going to follow this new Batwoman just because she's a lesbian? Maybe. Some will undoubtedly avoid her, and maybe all DC books, because of her (sadly). But overall, it's going to be whether she's written as an interesting character doing interesting, entertaining things, that will determine if she stays or goes. Her sexual preference, ethnic background, etc., matter hardly at all if she's bady written.

Put another way, does DC really think that John Stewart brings more black readers into comics? Or Robin brings more 15 year olds? We've been trying to make it so that people don't notice things like the color of someone's skin for decades now. I think many of these attempts end up setting us back a few steps.

It's like that old TV commercial, the one where the kid asks his grampa if the kid is prejudiced. Grampa asks him "who is your friend Timmy?" Kid replies "Timmy's my Jewish friend." Grampa says, "well, then you're prejudiced." John Stewart, to me, is just a Green Lantern. To others, he's the "black" Green Lantern.
User avatar

L Independant

25 To Life

Postby L Independant » Fri Jun 02, 2006 10:48 am

Well put. Marvel did a bang-up job revealing the sexuality of 1 or 2 of their Young Avengers. I don't know if it was revealed ahead of time, but I don't seem to recall much fan-fare/hoopla about 2 of them being gay. It was revealed in the last portion of the last issue of the first arc. I almost missed it - I had to re-read it to see if they said what I thought they said, because it wasn't a, "Wait, you're gay?!" moment. Very well written.

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