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[Jubilee]

Nitkrst is making some excellent posts in this thread.

[Doc Jon]

Holy mother of God...just boycott DC then. Cripes, the bitching is ridiculous. Better yet, set up a tent in Moore's beard as a show of solidarity. Whatever.

So follow up question. What if we have? We can't talk about it as well?

[Doc Jon]

Also, I hate the premise in this thread that if you're against these prequels, that it also means you have to defend everything Alan Moore has ever done or said. That's simply a stupid premise. Moore makes some good points, and sometimes I agree with him, and sometimes I don't. To nitpick one thing he's said or done as some type of evidence against everything else he's done in his career is some stupid e-lawyer bs.

I don't care about these prequels and I won't be buying them. I also think they're just a cash grab.

But DC has the right to make them, so go for it if you want.

[alaska1125]

So follow up question. What if we have? We can't talk about it as well?

Argh...I hate this response. Yes, since I'm now lord and ruler of the Internet, you can't speak of this any further. Duh.

[ReturnoftheMack]

No it isn't, you just don't want to see it. It doesn't matter if you use someone else's chess pieces when they're in the public domain, they are up for grabs so that people CAN use them. What matters is that the Chess Board is unique, how the artist makes the pieces interact, that's Art.

BW is creatively bankrupt because it's using Moore's Chess Board. Everything is happening between his panels to be wrapped up to co-incide with Watchmen. If it was a sequel after the original narrative ended, at least it would be breaking new ground.

Thanks man, I drew them that way for a reason.

Check out John Cater's description from 1920.
"He was a splendid specimen of manhood, standing a good two inches over six feet, broad of shoulder and narrow of hip, with the carriage of the trained fighting man. His features were regular and clear cut, his hair black and closely cropped, while his eyes were of a steel grey, reflecting a strong and loyal character, filled with fire and initiative."

Then there's Hugo Danner's description from 1930.
"Extremely dark of hair, of eyes and skin, moderately tall, and shaped with that compact, breath taking symmetry that the male figure sometimes assumes, a brilliantly devised, aggressive head topping his broad shoulders, graceful, a man vehemently alive, a man with the promise of a young God. Hugo at eighteen."

He fills out even more after university. Don't just take my word for it, Gladiator by Philip Wylie is in the public domain, go read it yourself. The John Carter series might be free too, if not it's dirt cheap read them both.

The parallels to Superman are staggering.

You drew those?

[ReturnoftheMack]

No it isn't, you just don't want to see it. It doesn't matter if you use someone else's chess pieces when they're in the public domain, they are up for grabs so that people CAN use them. What matters is that the Chess Board is unique, how the artist makes the pieces interact, that's Art.

BW is creatively bankrupt because it's using Moore's Chess Board. Everything is happening between his panels to be wrapped up to co-incide with Watchmen. If it was a sequel after the original narrative ended, at least it would be breaking new ground.

I'm not denying that Before Watchmen is creatively bankrupt. I think most of the issues will suck.

I am just saying that DC has the right to do it since they own the characters. I also don't think Alan Moore should criticize today's creators for working on "his" creations or writing stories that he says are copied from his (Blackest Night) when he does the same thing. Alan Moore has used what other people had written for his whole career.

And we aren't talking about archetypes like your pervious posts. Everyone is an archetype. He takes actual existing characters and uses them. Again, I have no problem with this as I love Fables, but the criticism of his fellow creators for doing what he has always done annoys me.

[Doc Jon]

Argh...I hate this response. Yes, since I'm now lord and ruler of the Internet, you can't speak of this any further. Duh.

Well, I'm confused. You seem frustrated by discussion on the topic...

[alaska1125]

Well, I'm confused. You seem frustrated by discussion on the topic...

No, you're right. I genuinely am frustrated by the side that thinks that BW is some sort of atrocity. That said, I realize it doesn't take a degree in rocket science to, oh, simply not click on the thread. So if I'm frustrated, I suppose I really have myself to blame.

[Doc Jon]

No, you're right. I genuinely am frustrated by the side that thinks that BW is some sort of atrocity. That said, I realize it doesn't take a degree in rocket science to, oh, simply not click on the thread. So if I'm frustrated, I suppose I really have myself to blame.

No, I can get behind that.

I get frustrated by people who then go the other extreme and paint Moore as a hack.

I don't see BW as some sort of atrocity, but I would rather see all that talent on a different project.

[The Shadow]

I'm not denying that Before Watchmen is creatively bankrupt. I think most of the issues will suck.

I am just saying that DC has the right to do it since they own the characters. I also don't think Alan Moore should criticize today's creators for working on "his" creations or writing stories that he says are copied from his (Blackest Night) when he does the same thing. Alan Moore has used what other people had written for his whole career.

And we aren't talking about archetypes like your pervious posts. Everyone is an archetype. He takes actual existing characters and uses them. Again, I have no problem with this as I love Fables, but the criticism of his fellow creators for doing what he has always done annoys me.

This post should have ended the thread.

[Ntikrst]

This post should have ended the thread.

Shoulda, woulda, coulda...

You drew those?

Yes sir, I'm a has-been animator who's now a wanna-be cartoonist.

I'm not denying that Before Watchmen is creatively bankrupt. I think most of the issues will suck.

I totally agree. This is why I won't be buying them, creator rights abuse sucks no doubt but what grinds my gears is instead of making their own "classic", they're rationalizing a rehash cash grab. The fact that they screwed Moore and Gibbons over is just icing on the cake so to speak.

I am just saying that DC has the right to do it since they own the characters.

They don't own them actually, Watchmen is still licensed from Moore and Gibbons. Moore still gets paid, he just chooses to defer his cut to Gibbons rather than be affiliated with DC at all. That's part of the reason why it's unsavory, Moore is locked into a licensing agreement that prevents him from controlling his property, but its still his and Gibbons. Theoretically, The Watchmen could revert to Moore and Gibbons IF the conditions of out of print for a year, were ever met. BW will ultimately serve to reinforce Watchmen sales, so that's why it will be a spit in the eye to Moore and Gibbons. Gibbons isn't independently wealthy though, he can't live off principles like Moore can so that's why he's not as vocal.

I also don't think Alan Moore should criticize today's creators for working on "his" creations or writing stories that he says are copied from his (Blackest Night)

Why not? His criticism is the same as ours, that DC comics is creatively bankrupt. They are content on raiding the archives to play it safe for the same reasons Hollywood is obsessed with reboots, remakes and sequels. I don't think Moore is personally offended they're expanding on his eight page WFH GL story, he just uses it as a example.

when he does the same thing. Alan Moore has used what other people had written for his whole career.

But everything he's used has been radically transformed from the source material, that makes it his own. Moore is contemptuous of projects that don't transform the source material like adaptations, sequels, prequels, reboots and remakes.

And we aren't talking about archetypes like your pervious posts. Everyone is an archetype. He takes actual existing characters and uses them. Again, I have no problem with this as I love Fables, but the criticism of his fellow creators for doing what he has always done annoys me.

Moore "takes" characters that are up for grabs and does things with them that is completely unique. His fellow creators are "taking" Moore's licensed characters and not doing anything with them that hasn't been done already. When it's all over their BW project will only serve to generate more sales for Watchmen and therefore ensure that the series doesn't go out of print and the creators never resume control.

From his point of view, these guys are Scabs.

[ReturnoftheMack]

Moore "takes" characters that are up for grabs and does things with them that is completely unique. His fellow creators are "taking" Moore's licensed characters and not doing anything with them that hasn't been done already. When it's all over their BW project will only serve to generate more sales for Watchmen and therefore ensure that the series doesn't go out of print and the creators never resume control.

From his point of view, these guys are Scabs.

I'm only going to reply to this point.

How do you know that they "aren't doing anything with them that hasn't been done already"? We have no idea what they are doing.

[Ntikrst]

I'm only going to reply to this point.

How do you know that they "aren't doing anything with them that hasn't been done already"? We have no idea what they are doing.

What ever they're doing has to line up with their pre-ordained fates as detailed in the Watchmen. So anything they "do" in BW will either just be rehashing things we've seen before or it will have to be completely insignificant so that it has no bearing on the character that could possibly cause them to deviate from their ultimate destiny.

I didn't find anything unique about SW prequels at all, certainly nothing compared to watching Episode II when it was first released. BW is going to be the same thing, anti-climactic behind the scenes/day in the life crap. Minutemen will be the most interesting, just because they got the least exposure in Watchmen but still, we can refer to Watchmen to find all their fates too.

[ReturnoftheMack]

What ever they're doing has to line up with their pre-ordained fates as detailed in the Watchmen. So anything they "do" in BW will either just be rehashing things we've seen before or it will have to be completely insignificant so that it has no bearing on the character that could possibly cause them to deviate from their ultimate destiny.

I didn't find anything unique about SW prequels at all, certainly nothing compared to watching Episode II when it was first released. BW is going to be the same thing, anti-climactic behind the scenes/day in the life crap. Minutemen will be the most interesting, just because they got the least exposure in Watchmen but still, we can refer to Watchmen to find all their fates too.

I don't like prequels either, but Rise of the Planet of the Apes, X-Men: First Class and Star Trek were pretty awesome.

[Doc Jon]

I don't like prequels either, but Rise of the Planet of the Apes, X-Men: First Class and Star Trek were pretty awesome.

Well, Star Trek is a quantum reality that is not a prequel in any way.

X-Men: First Class might as well be because it doesn't seem like it would be match up with the other X-Men films.

So they may do that with BW, who knows?