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Eli Katz

OMCTO

Postby Eli Katz » Sat Jun 12, 2010 11:46 am

AMS wrote:Kurt Busiek just wrote a Spider-man story where him and Captain America fought a team called the Rogue scholars, which consisted of Tesla, Darwin, Marie Curie and one other I cannot remember.

One more reason I don't read Spidey anymore.
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BlueStreak

The Red Stands for Irony

Postby BlueStreak » Sat Jun 12, 2010 11:48 am

Eli Katz wrote:But Cap fought Hitler in World War 2. I said, in my review, that I acknowledge that contemporary events sometimes intrude Marvel comics.

I'm not crazy about Renaissance Italians suddenly being alive and acting as a big players in the Marvel Universe. This is something new and it doesn't really fit with the way Marvel works as a fictional world. What's next? Will Spidey being fighting time-traveling Napoleon? Will Red Skull be teaming up with resurrected Nero or Cortez to conquer the world? I hope not.

But I will say it again: I could look past this use of historical figures if the rest of the book was good. Unfortunately, the rest of the book is not entertaining, and so the use of historical figures is just one more element for me that detracts from the story.


Isn't Hate-Monger a clone of Hitler or something like that?

I personally don't mind historical figures popping up in fiction. The Star Trek episode featuring Lincoln was awesome.
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thefourthman

Outhouse Editor

Postby thefourthman » Sat Jun 12, 2010 11:48 am

Amoebas wrote:But the Hitler in Captain America was just Hitler. Now if we find out that Adolph suddenly fought Thanos in 1939, then he's not 'just Hitler' anymore.

So in time travel stories, it is only okay for the fictional characters to time travel and do things? As such, you will run into problems, because every time travel story ever has the time traveller run into an important figure of the travelled to time.

It's okay to say I hate time travel. It's okay to say that I hate historical figures.

It's not okay to say that in a universe that has used historical figures and time travel since the dawn of its inception, that it is not okay to use time travel and historical figures or worse yet to put crazy ass arbitrary rules on the use of time travel or historical figures.
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Rockman

Rain Partier

Postby Rockman » Sat Jun 12, 2010 11:49 am

Eli Katz wrote:One more reason I don't read Spidey anymore.


[spoiler]In the issue Darwin created a situation where Sandman would become a giant monster, and he would somehow come out looking like a hero. The whole excercise was a ploy by Darwin so he could mack on Marie Curie.[/spoiler]
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thefourthman

Outhouse Editor

Postby thefourthman » Sat Jun 12, 2010 11:49 am

AMS wrote:[spoiler]In the issue Darwin created a situation where Sandman would become a giant monster, and he would somehow come out looking like a hero. The whole excercise was a ploy by Darwin so he could mack on Marie Curie.[/spoiler]

and it was AWESOME.
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Rockman

Rain Partier

Postby Rockman » Sat Jun 12, 2010 11:50 am

thefourthman wrote:and it was AWESOME.


I did not hate it so much, but it was rather odd.
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Eli Katz

OMCTO

Postby Eli Katz » Sat Jun 12, 2010 11:51 am

thefourthman wrote:I get that you don't like the rest of the book... that's cool. Did you read the first issue? Cause that is the set up for why Da Vinci is involved. There is some time hokum going on. Not gonna say that makes it better, but in a world where Steve Rogers can play Quantum Leap with himself and the Avengers travel to the future on a regular basis or SPider-Man and Wolverine can time travel to the caveman period, it seems odd to take issue with Da Vinci travelling to the fifties.

It's one thing for fictional characters to travel time in a fictional world; it's another thing completely for real people to time travel in a fictional universe. It fundamentally changes the boundaries and logic of the Marvel Universe.
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Rockman

Rain Partier

Postby Rockman » Sat Jun 12, 2010 11:53 am

Eli Katz wrote:It's one thing for fictional characters to travel time in a fictional world; it's another thing completely for real people to time travel in a fictional universe. It fundamentally changes the boundaries and logic of the Marvel Universe.


I think that wall was breached long ago with the likes of Sinister, Apocalypse, Kang, etc.. All of which operated all through out world history. I think at that point you take away the fact that marvel u was normal up until the 1950's, to the fact that is a place where all this crazy stuff was always going on. Given that I can accept that DaVinci was some kind of super genius who could create personal flying machines.
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Eli Katz

OMCTO

Postby Eli Katz » Sat Jun 12, 2010 11:54 am

thefourthman wrote:So in time travel stories, it is only okay for the fictional characters to time travel and do things? As such, you will run into problems, because every time travel story ever has the time traveller run into an important figure of the travelled to time.

It's okay to say I hate time travel. It's okay to say that I hate historical figures.

It's not okay to say that in a universe that has used historical figures and time travel since the dawn of its inception, that it is not okay to use time travel and historical figures or worse yet to put crazy ass arbitrary rules on the use of time travel or historical figures.

When it comes to time travel stories, I follow Roger Ebert's advice: don't think too much about the implications of time travel and just accept that it happens for the sake of the story.
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Rockman

Rain Partier

Postby Rockman » Sat Jun 12, 2010 11:55 am

Eli Katz wrote:When it comes to time travel stories, I follow Roger Ebert's advice: don't think too much about the implications of time travel and just accept that it happens for the sake of the story.


It is hard to do that though. Which is why I generally hate time travel stories period. If they do not subscribe to the "whatever happened, happened" thing then I do not care for it.
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Eli Katz

OMCTO

Postby Eli Katz » Sat Jun 12, 2010 11:57 am

AMS wrote:It is hard to do that though. Which is why I generally hate time travel stories period. If they do not subscribe to the "whatever happened, happened" thing then I do not care for it.

I don't like time travel stories, either. They are usually retarded.

I do like The Terminator, though.
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Rockman

Rain Partier

Postby Rockman » Sat Jun 12, 2010 11:58 am

Eli Katz wrote:I don't like time travel stories, either. They are usually retarded.

I do like The Terminator, though.


The original was strongly in the whatever happened, happened camp. The second one is kind of confusing in a way, but hey it had better action.
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thefourthman

Outhouse Editor

Postby thefourthman » Sat Jun 12, 2010 12:00 pm

AMS wrote:It is hard to do that though. Which is why I generally hate time travel stories period. If they do not subscribe to the "whatever happened, happened" thing then I do not care for it.

and if this story acted like that, I might have a problem with it, but this is a secret history, which means that whatever happens in this book FUNDAMENTALLY changes the nature of the Marvel Universe as we know it.

I do not think that having Da Vinci time travel is that change though. I don't get the it's okay to have time travel and historical figures, but don't you dare let historical figures time travel.
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thefourthman

Outhouse Editor

Postby thefourthman » Sat Jun 12, 2010 12:04 pm

Eli Katz wrote:I don't like time travel stories, either. They are usually retarded.

I do like The Terminator, though.

I do like time travel like in Pax Romana or the new Star Trek movie, where the events from the time travel create a completely different history. Like in Back to the Future where McFly had to go fix what he changed. That's the way it should be.

I like Booster Gold and Quantum Leap too, where time travel does not effect the larger story of history because they act on small things or change the way history originally happened to create the history we know.

The Booster Gold issue where he tries to save Barbara Gordon was brilliant in that aspect.
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Eli Katz

OMCTO

Postby Eli Katz » Sat Jun 12, 2010 12:05 pm

thefourthman wrote:and if this story acted like that, I might have a problem with it, but this is a secret history, which means that whatever happens in this book FUNDAMENTALLY changes the nature of the Marvel Universe as we know it.

I do not think that having Da Vinci time travel is that change though. I don't get the it's okay to have time travel and historical figures, but don't you dare let historical figures time travel.

I don't like historical figures popping up in the Marvel Universe and being cosmic bad asses. That's my problem with it.

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