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Justin M. Campbell

cheese

Postby Justin M. Campbell » Sat Jun 12, 2010 9:59 am

Honestly, I think Hickman gave away the game here.

Leonid is the thing in the sun from # 1 and likely has some connection to Marvel cosmic entity Eternity.

But I think the minutia of the story is going to be the drawing point.

I dug it, but, like I just said, it telegraphed some stuff.

Although, seeing Parel's version of Galactus as the cover for # 3? Bad ASS!
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thefourthman

Outhouse Editor

Postby thefourthman » Sat Jun 12, 2010 10:56 am

Eli, I have to ask, have you read League of Extraordinary Gentlemen or Five Fists of Science or Hellboy or Time Lincoln or The Amazing Screw-On Head. With the exception of Time Lincoln and Five Fists of Science, these are comics that are considered the pinnacle of achievement for the medium. (Some highly overrated - League, some near perfect genius- Screw On Head)... They all take historically (or literary-ly?) important characters and place them into the absurd and fictional world of comics.

For me, that is one of the cool things that comics can do.

I need to give this a re-read before I review; but, not necessarily by you Eli (as you probably still haven't read issue one - which may have taken some of the edge off Da Vinci for you, although the objections to Nostradamus seem odd, he probably would have dug it, maybe Da Vinci too), I am kind of dumb founded by the complaints of it not making sense.

I can understand the problems with dialogue or techno-babble or even the script page (and that one boils down to pure personal preference, I would much rather see one page of that then three or four pages of talking heads needlessly stretching out the title - but then again, having read everything Hickman has written in comics, I am used to that particular tool at this point), but from my reading it seemed pretty straight forward to me.
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Amoebas

Son of Stein

Postby Amoebas » Sat Jun 12, 2010 11:17 am

Question - If SHIELD has always been there to take on the big stuff, where were when the Skrulls came to Earth in the 50's or in '61? The Toad Men? The Stone Men from Saturn? The Lava Men? Galactus on his (2nd) visit? (which really devalues the significance of FF #48-50 imo).

I suppose the only way to answer this is for them to say they orchestrated the creation of 3-D Man, the FF, the Hulk, Thor, etc.

And if that's the case then the magic of early Marvel is rendered meaningless.

Time will tell, but I for one hope this is a What-If world and not the proper universe. If this were the case then it might be (somehow) more believable.
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Eli Katz

OMCTO

Postby Eli Katz » Sat Jun 12, 2010 11:18 am

thefourthman wrote:Eli, I have to ask, have you read League of Extraordinary Gentlemen or Five Fists of Science or Hellboy or Time Lincoln or The Amazing Screw-On Head. With the exception of Time Lincoln and Five Fists of Science, these are comics that are considered the pinnacle of achievement for the medium. (Some highly overrated - League, some near perfect genius- Screw On Head)... They all take historically (or literary-ly?) important characters and place them into the absurd and fictional world of comics.

For me, that is one of the cool things that comics can do.

I have read and enjoyed some of those books. It sounds as though I enjoyed League more than you.

Here's the thing: I'm not opposed, on principle, to comics providing alternate histories. I'm not opposed to novels or movies doing that, either. Heck, I love Philip K. Dick's novel, The Man in the High Castle. But I am opposed to a Marvel book doing it. Marvel has a well-established fictional world. That world does not, for the most part, intrude our world, and it does not, for the most part, incorporate real historical figures. Certainly, it does no rewrite world history.

So for me, this story is breaking the longstanding conventions and limits of the Marvel Universe. That's why I oppose the use of historical figures in this particular case.

And maybe I could have looked beyond this, if the overall book had been better written and more entertaining. But it has absurd dialogue and is trying to be all po-mo. No thanks.
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BlueStreak

The Red Stands for Irony

Postby BlueStreak » Sat Jun 12, 2010 11:20 am

Amoebas wrote:Question - If SHIELD has always been there to take on the big stuff, where were when the Skrulls came to Earth in the 50's or in '61? The Toad Men? The Stone Men from Saturn? The Lava Men? Galactus on his (2nd) visit? (which really devalues the significance of FF #48-50 imo).

I suppose the only way to answer this is for them to say they orchestrated the creation of 3-D Man, the FF, the Hulk, Thor, etc.

And if that's the case then the magic of early Marvel is rendered meaningless.

Time will tell, but I for one hope this is a What-If world and not the proper universe. If this were the case then it might be (somehow) more believable.


As SHIELD's set in the 1950's, it happens before all these events occur.

My bet is that the SHIELD organization in this book will disband before all is said and done.
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thefourthman

Outhouse Editor

Postby thefourthman » Sat Jun 12, 2010 11:20 am

Amoebas wrote:Question - If SHIELD has always been there to take on the big stuff, where were when the Skrulls came to Earth in the 50's or in '61? The Toad Men? The Stone Men from Saturn? The Lava Men? Galactus on his (2nd) visit? (which really devalues the significance of FF #48-50 imo).

I suppose the only way to answer this is for them to say they orchestrated the creation of 3-D Man, the FF, the Hulk, Thor, etc.

And if that's the case then the magic of early Marvel is rendered meaningless.

Time will tell, but I for one hope this is a What-If world and not the proper universe. If this were the case then it might be (somehow) more believable.

there is a feeling that SHIELD will weigh heavily on Hickman's FF and Secret Warriors as well. But, as you say, only time will tell.
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Eric Ratcliffe

Staff Writer

Postby Eric Ratcliffe » Sat Jun 12, 2010 11:21 am

review coming tomorrow 8)
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superfictious

Humuhumunukunukuapuaa

Postby superfictious » Sat Jun 12, 2010 11:25 am

I think I'll take a stab at a review a little later, but my initial take after reading the first two issues is that this is a mini-Crisis event.

I can also see how some would be turned off by this type of story but, as I am a Morrison fan and this is definitely Morrisonian storytelling, I'm all for it.
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thefourthman

Outhouse Editor

Postby thefourthman » Sat Jun 12, 2010 11:27 am

Eli Katz wrote:I have read and enjoyed some of those books. It sounds as though I enjoyed League more than you.

Here's the thing: I'm not opposed, on principle, to comics providing alternate histories. I'm not opposed to novels or movies doing that, either. Heck, I love Philip K. Dick's novel, The Man in the High Castle. But I am opposed to a Marvel book doing it. Marvel has a well-established fictional world. That world does not, for the most part, intrude our world, and it does not, for the most part, incorporate real historical figures. Certainly, it does no rewrite world history.

So for me, this story is breaking the longstanding conventions and limits of the Marvel Universe. That's why I oppose the use of historical figures in this particular case.

And maybe I could have looked beyond this, if the overall book had been better written and more entertaining. But it has absurd dialogue and is trying to be all po-mo. No thanks.

But that's not quite true. Cap fought Hitler and from all appearances, the Marvel Universe is an exact replica of the real Universe until the dawn of Super-Heroes. Not only that, at least in appearance (if not in admittance from editorial) Clinton, George W. Bush and Obama have all been the president during their terms. The whole conceit of Marvel over DC is that it is indeed based in the real world.

I just think it is a particularly odd thing to note about the book.

Like I said, I can understand some of the complaints. This one seems really odd to me.
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Rockman

Rain Partier

Postby Rockman » Sat Jun 12, 2010 11:28 am

I liked the book myself. I cannot tell you what is really going on, but I like the way that DaVinci is portrayed in it.
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Eli Katz

OMCTO

Postby Eli Katz » Sat Jun 12, 2010 11:41 am

thefourthman wrote:But that's not quite true. Cap fought Hitler and from all appearances, the Marvel Universe is an exact replica of the real Universe until the dawn of Super-Heroes. Not only that, at least in appearance (if not in admittance from editorial) Clinton, George W. Bush and Obama have all been the president during their terms. The whole conceit of Marvel over DC is that it is indeed based in the real world.

I just think it is a particularly odd thing to note about the book.

Like I said, I can understand some of the complaints. This one seems really odd to me.

But Cap fought Hitler in World War 2. I said, in my review, that I acknowledge that contemporary events sometimes intrude Marvel comics.

I'm not crazy about Renaissance Italians suddenly being alive and acting as a big players in the Marvel Universe. This is something new and it doesn't really fit with the way Marvel works as a fictional world. What's next? Will Spidey being fighting time-traveling Napoleon? Will Red Skull be teaming up with resurrected Nero or Cortez to conquer the world? I hope not.

But I will say it again: I could look past this use of historical figures if the rest of the book was good. Unfortunately, the rest of the book is not entertaining, and so the use of historical figures is just one more element for me that detracts from the story.
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Amoebas

Son of Stein

Postby Amoebas » Sat Jun 12, 2010 11:41 am

thefourthman wrote:But that's not quite true. Cap fought Hitler and from all appearances, the Marvel Universe is an exact replica of the real Universe until the dawn of Super-Heroes. Not only that, at least in appearance (if not in admittance from editorial) Clinton, George W. Bush and Obama have all been the president during their terms. The whole conceit of Marvel over DC is that it is indeed based in the real world.

Like I said, I can understand some of the complaints. This one seems really odd to me.

But the Hitler in Captain America was just Hitler. Now if we find out that Adolph suddenly fought Thanos in 1939, then he's not 'just Hitler' anymore.
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Rockman

Rain Partier

Postby Rockman » Sat Jun 12, 2010 11:43 am

Eli Katz wrote:But Cap fought Hitler in World War 2. I said, in my review, that I acknowledge that contemporary events sometimes intrude Marvel comics.

I'm not crazy about Renaissance Italians suddenly being alive and acting as a big players in the Marvel Universe. This is something new and it doesn't really fit with the way Marvel works as a fictional world. What's next? Will Spidey being fighting time-traveling Napoleon? Will Red Skull be teaming up with resurrected Nero or Cortez to conquer the world? I hope not.

But I will say it again: I could look past this use of historical figures if the rest of the book was good. Unfortunately, the rest of the book is not entertaining, and so the use of historical figures is just one more element for me that detracts from the story.


Kurt Busiek just wrote a Spider-man story where him and Captain America fought a team called the Rogue scholars, which consisted of Tesla, Darwin, Marie Curie and one other I cannot remember.
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thefourthman

Outhouse Editor

Postby thefourthman » Sat Jun 12, 2010 11:44 am

Eli Katz wrote:But Cap fought Hitler in World War 2. I said, in my review, that I acknowledge that contemporary events sometimes intrude Marvel comics.

I'm not crazy about Renaissance Italians suddenly being alive and acting as a big players in the Marvel Universe. This is something new and it doesn't really fit with the way Marvel works as a fictional world. What's next? Will Spidey being fighting time-traveling Napoleon? Will Red Skull be teaming up with resurrected Nero or Cortez to conquer the world? I hope not.

But I will say it again: I could look past this use of historical figures if the rest of the book was good. Unfortunately, the rest of the book is not entertaining, and so the use of historical figures is just one more element for me that detracts from the story.

I get that you don't like the rest of the book... that's cool. Did you read the first issue? Cause that is the set up for why Da Vinci is involved. There is some time hokum going on. Not gonna say that makes it better, but in a world where Steve Rogers can play Quantum Leap with himself and the Avengers travel to the future on a regular basis or SPider-Man and Wolverine can time travel to the caveman period, it seems odd to take issue with Da Vinci travelling to the fifties.
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Eli Katz

OMCTO

Postby Eli Katz » Sat Jun 12, 2010 11:46 am

AMS wrote:Kurt Busiek just wrote a Spider-man story where him and Captain America fought a team called the Rogue scholars, which consisted of Tesla, Darwin, Marie Curie and one other I cannot remember.

One more reason I don't read Spidey anymore.

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