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Cassandra Cain/Stephanie Brown Thread

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Zechs

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Postby Zechs » Sat Sep 02, 2017 9:54 pm

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Draco x

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Postby Draco x » Sat Sep 02, 2017 10:52 pm

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Draco x

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Postby Draco x » Thu Oct 19, 2017 2:12 pm

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Zechs

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Postby Zechs » Fri Oct 20, 2017 11:56 pm

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Zechs

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Postby Zechs » Fri Jan 05, 2018 7:58 pm

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achilles

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Postby achilles » Fri Jan 05, 2018 8:43 pm

So....they bring Cass back properly yet? Haven't been following, figured I just jump in when my favorite characters are back...
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SporkBot

Swedish Pinata of Death

Postby SporkBot » Sun Jan 07, 2018 12:45 pm

achilles wrote:So....they bring Cass back properly yet? Haven't been following, figured I just jump in when my favorite characters are back...


Not from what I've heard. Harper's still her best friend and the only reason existence is a thing (because...reasons), her Dad still always hated her and died leaving her an afterthought (because he was more concerned with "Mommy" not appreciating him enough), and no trace she was ever Batgirl or had any relationships that were, y'know...built organically. Because organic development is not Tynion's strong suit.

But it's okay. She hugs Clayface in cheap emotional scenes and has stitches over her mask. TOTALLY the same character. Same way Tim sleeping with Steph after (in context) two or three brief encounters is THE EXACT same thing as Tim being chaste and having a long time relationship with her. Completely the same.

Hey, DC!
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Zechs

Outhouse Editor

Postby Zechs » Mon Jan 29, 2018 1:12 am

achilles wrote:So....they bring Cass back properly yet? Haven't been following, figured I just jump in when my favorite characters are back...


She's the best-written character in Detective.

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Her best friend currently has been Clayface because she noticed how much he was suffering and how much he needed a rock to keep him from falling back into relapsing into being a villain. They have been there for each other thru thick and thin. In fact, this has been a long-standing subplot in the comic since the second arc of the comic. The "hug" they shared wasn't cheap. It was earned. Basil relapsed hard into his persona. Cass didn't budge one bit. She knew he needs help and would be there for him. Thru thick and thin.

Clayface has even been teaching her Shakespeare via recordings and has gotten her to act out select scenes and quotes from the Tempest (which there is an added irony toward). Sadly, the friendship ended in tragedy. Kate just shot Clayface with an anti-Clayface gun that the Colony made to take him down prior to Jacob realizing lethal wasn't the way. He hoped that Tim or Luke would make it eventually not lethal. Kate chose otherwise shooting Basil in front of Cassandra as he had absorbed a ton of clay that was making him revert to the Clayface persona.

Harper hasn't been seen by Cassandra since the League of Shadows arc, a fact that Harper herself pointed out to Stephanie in the arc prior to this one (Stephanie got Harper and Lesile to join her in the Underground building a city devoid of vigilantes and had protection. Pity Stephanie was duped by Anarky/Victim Syndicate as they used these people and Stephanie to learn about the Belfrey and Clayface.

Also as much as Sporky refuses to believe it. Cassandra was the only one demanding that they help Basil out when everyone else was thinking otherwise. That he was a victim and he needed help. That alone is a trait of Cassandra's.

It's obvious Sporky didn't read the finale to B&RE. David Cain realized the error of his ways at the end of the comic. He killed Mother and dragged the both of them to a fiery demise. Telling Cassandra to be better than both of them. He was in fact quite regretful for what he had done to Cassandra in those final moments.

Secondly, it has been hinted in a flashback that there has been more to David Cain than meets the eye. Cassandra found something of his in a flashback. Something of Shiva's on his person. She called him out on it and he dismissed it as a nothing, but Cassandra knew otherwise.

Third, the Batgirl stuff still happened. That's the whole point of Rebirth. Manhatten changed the DCU. Everything prior happened. The heroes haven't realized this yet all the tampering save Wally and at first Clark (but his memories have merged with the New 52). Just go into the fact Manhatten fucked with all the legacy brands (which he did).

As for not meeting Barbara? Well, that's a mistake I place with the writers of Batgirl & the Birds of Prey comic. They had a three-issue arc where Cassandra appeared in it. She only had scenes with Ivy (of all characters), Basil, and her reacting the same way as Diana (so not impressed at the villains of the entire arc). Before he deleted his Twitter Tynion said Barbara would be meeting Cassandra in #975.


That said, Tec has had it's hurdles. Stephanie has been awful. That's where the middle finger should be raised. Her entire arc was stupid and her motives kept flinging back and forth. She basically was the reason why Basil got put into the situation (all her notes and files got taken by Anarky and used by the Victim Snydicate). So even the stuff currently going on in Doomsday Clock? That kind of is all due to Stephanie.

Tim was good, but this current arc has been meh. He hasn't been given much to do other than say he can't turn out like his future self. Yet, it appears nothing he can do can stop it. All the stones are going into place for it happening.

Luke/Jean-Paul are nonfactors on the comic. The later had his arc stolen by Zatanna. Bruce is a non-factor in this with all his characterization mostly being put into King's comic. Kate almost the same, but now she has this act from the latest issue to deal with. Which really makes me hate the character actually. She knows the future too, and willingly accepts her father's help plus does what she does in the latest issue without heistation.
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SporkBot

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Postby SporkBot » Mon Jan 29, 2018 7:24 pm

Zechs wrote:Harper hasn't been seen by Cassandra since the League of Shadows arc, a fact that Harper herself pointed out to Stephanie in the arc prior to this one (Stephanie got Harper and Lesile to join her in the Underground building a city devoid of vigilantes and had protection. Pity Stephanie was duped by Anarky/Victim Syndicate as they used these people and Stephanie to learn about the Belfrey and Clayface.


So, they crapped the bed while suffering diarrhea with the "Harper is the most important being ever" version of Cassie's origin (and to a degree, Steph's too), rush things like Cassie's life or Steph's training (or omit it entirely), work the stories and character entirely to feature more Harper, who wasn't even developed at all...but it's okay because they put a couple paper towels down.

The Harper damage has been done. It can be fixed, but not by keeping her appearances few and far between. It's like if they wrote a story where the Flash groped a bunch of women at super-speed, and their "fix" was to only bring it up as a joke once and never actually resolve this conflict to his personality.

It's obvious Sporky didn't read the finale to B&RE. David Cain realized the error of his ways at the end of the comic. He killed Mother and dragged the both of them to a fiery demise. Telling Cassandra to be better than both of them. He was in fact quite regretful for what he had done to Cassandra in those final moments.


Yes, I did; I bought it, after all, foolishly thinking the conclusion might've had a chance to redeem the overall lousy story as a whole. I saw how Orphan-Cain ran Mother through after his inexplicable survival of a slit throat. But Cassie was as much an afterthought in his actions as she was her new origin. First and foremost, it was about "Mommy" not appreciating David enough. That is what he began with and decried most. So the closest he came to giving a damn about Cassie was a largely selfish sacrifice, that didn't really need to happen if he just shoved her into the lava in her stupid ice-fortress, watched her burn, then escape and find an active way to make amends to his daughter. Unless she'd survive that with no explanation like that poison tooth. Killing himself was pointless. And Cass taking a killer's name is stupid, regardless of the "she feels she has no family" excuse. Sounds like a lazy attempt at seeming "artsy" and "deep".

Three word bubbles do not make up for all the confused nonsense of 26 issues of a slobbering idiot henchmen. Everything about his "sacrifice" was poorly done, like a lot in the series. Orphan-Cain is different in the worst way from pre52 Cain, and I sincerely doubt Tynion was planning this big epic character arc where he "secretly loved Cass"...he's on damage control, at best, with little hints like that picture of Shiva. But even by your own admission, he's not doing so well with other characters, so this attempt to mildly retcon his mistakes may not even pan out, planned or not.

The Eternal books were overly ambitious anniversary money-grabs. While there were other writers and editors (the latter of whom I'm certain where either asleep or drunk on the job), the stories have been frequently been referred to as Tynion's ideas. For what few interesting elements they had, they were tediously long, had lousy reinventions of characters, and were were not done very well because of a lot of factors beyond Tynion's inability to grow characters organically. Hugging Clayface doesn't change that. Saying "they're basically the same" when they obviously aren't doesn't fix that.

Third, the Batgirl stuff still happened. That's the whole point of Rebirth. Manhatten changed the DCU. Everything prior happened. The heroes haven't realized this yet all the tampering save Wally and at first Clark (but his memories have merged with the New 52). Just go into the fact Manhatten fucked with all the legacy brands (which he did).


Except the two versions CANNOT HAVE HAPPENED TOGETHER. Either Cassie was Batgirl and had her own life that was about HER (scary as that may be to some Harper fans), or it was the Harper-centric version Tynion molded. Historically and in terms of storytelling, they don't mesh. Chalking it up to "Dr. Manhattan did stuff" is lazy writing trying to salvage the crappier ideas that should be tossed away (I can't think of a single DC character reinvention that was in any way improved from the previous). Remember how Quesada explained how Peter and MJ never got married? Yeah, it's that level of stupid. This general idea of "It's Dr. Manhattan, we don't have to explain it" is DC trying to b.s. their way as they struggle to rub two brain cells together in hopes of getting their stuff together. As I've said before, if Rebirth is this "apology" as it's often been touted, what kind of apology leaves mistakes to continue? That's like some apologizing for drunkenly driving into your house, but they get to keep their license AND keep driving!

You want Cassie to be all friendly with Clayface, fine, no reason that can't work with a post-Batgirl, pre52, 100% Row-free Cassie (I'd imagine his amorphous form and the nature of his powers in general would make him difficult to "read", but that's another matter). I have no problem with the idea, only that Tynion's past attempts at such connections were done terribly. They can either give Cassie her good origin, or Tynion's, but they can't (and shouldn't) have both. Because Tynion's was BAD.

That said, Tec has had it's hurdles. Stephanie has been awful. That's where the middle finger should be raised. Her entire arc was stupid and her motives kept flinging back and forth. She basically was the reason why Basil got put into the situation (all her notes and files got taken by Anarky and used by the Victim Snydicate). So even the stuff currently going on in Doomsday Clock? That kind of is all due to Stephanie.


Another character he's professed to love. I mean, I'm not saying Tynion is lying (falsely claiming to be a fan is something of a stretch, to be honest), but with the damage already done to Stephanie and Cass, Tynion's previous attempts at character relationships being done poorly, and what you've outlined in the paragraph above, it's hard to see the love for anyone. Even IF the Cassie/Clay friendship is objectively well-done, how does that solve any of the other problems? Or fix his technical problems as a writer (poorly developed characterizations, numerous obvious plot holes, apparently rehashing the same "evil clandestine group attacks" story, unresolved elements, obvious beef against characters' fathers)? I've been down that "Maybe it'll get better" road before, and...well, things didn't improve.
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Zechs

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Postby Zechs » Sun Mar 11, 2018 4:20 pm

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Zechs

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Postby Zechs » Sun Mar 11, 2018 4:29 pm

If you haven't already, Cassandra was one of the first stretch goals unlocked in the Batman: Gotham Chronicles Kickstarter (the other was David Cain). Yes, it's Orphan guise (but Monolith the company that is making the game), but I don't think it'll be her only guise in the game if the teasing or fact that people within the company are fans of the character.

Barbara and Tim are the only two who've gotten alternates thus far (in Oracle/New 52 Batgirl and Robin/New 52 Red Robin) who aren't named Bruce.

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Draco x

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Postby Draco x » Mon Mar 12, 2018 12:10 am

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SporkBot

Swedish Pinata of Death

Postby SporkBot » Mon Mar 12, 2018 3:26 pm

Draco x wrote:Image


Approved!

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Nothing says "I'm an ally, you can trust me" like kicking someone off a speeding motorcycle. ESPECIALLY when that someone isn't wearing a helmet.
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OneWhoIsAll

Expert Post Whore

Postby OneWhoIsAll » Tue Mar 13, 2018 9:35 pm

Draco x wrote:Image


Sometimes I wish that version of Cass would sit on my face...or any part of my body really.
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Zechs

Outhouse Editor

Postby Zechs » Wed Mar 14, 2018 1:16 pm

So... #980 cover was leaked. But.. I ain't posting them. I have the pics. But I ain't posting it out of respect to the author. However...

[Reveal] Spoiler: Click to Expand
Cass and Stephanie's times as Batgirl are coming back.

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