The Outhouse - The Greatest Comic Book Forum

by **Jubilee** » Wed Dec 12, 2012 11:56 am

chap22 wrote:yeah, b/c clearly killing the character off would've been a much better option, right? there's tons of monthly books he could be starring in when he's dead. no, wait...

Yeah let's never kill anyone and completely remove any tension from our stories.

All the best runs throughout history (well most of them) in big 2 books have important side characters dying. It's a fact. It adds tension and freshens books up. When was the last time a main character died in Avengers/JLA/Teen Titans/X-men?

by **False Prophet** » Wed Dec 12, 2012 11:57 am

chap22 wrote:yeah, b/c clearly killing the character off would've been a much better option, right? there's tons of monthly books he could be starring in when he's dead. no, wait...

The pimp hand can never die.

by **Lord Simian** » Wed Dec 12, 2012 12:04 pm

Jubilee wrote:
Yeah let's never kill anyone and completely remove any tension from our stories.

All the best runs throughout history (well most of them) in big 2 books have important side characters dying. It's a fact. It adds tension and freshens books up. When was the last time a main character died in Avengers/JLA/Teen Titans/X-men?

Charles Xavier, Avengers vs X-Men, couple of months ago.

by **chap22** » Wed Dec 12, 2012 12:04 pm

Jubilee wrote:
Yeah let's never kill anyone and completely remove any tension from our stories.

All the best runs throughout history (well most of them) in big 2 books have important side characters dying. It's a fact. It adds tension and freshens books up. When was the last time a main character died in Avengers/JLA/Teen Titans/X-men?

nope, not letting you off the hook that easy.

you talk about how change is what comics need, how death is great, and how characters should evolve. then somebody gives you a prime example of a character evolving without dying...Cage got married, had a kid, gave up Avengering, and basically grew up. and then you make a crack that that's meaningless b/c now he's not in any monthly books so "hooray for progress". but that's the exact same end result as if he'd been killed. you don't want growth and change in comics either, unless it's the exact kind of growth and change that YOU want...namely death.

maybe when you actually grow up (like Cage did), you'll realize how badly you're talking out of your ass.

by **Jubilee** » Wed Dec 12, 2012 12:05 pm

Lord Simian wrote:
Charles Xavier, Avengers vs X-Men, couple of months ago.

He died in a big event book. Big event books are pretty much the only books worthwhile reading at this point, I'd certainly agree with that.

by **mrorangesoda** » Wed Dec 12, 2012 12:08 pm

Jubilee wrote:
He died in a big event book. Big event books are pretty much the only books worthwhile reading at this point, I'd certainly agree with that.

But they're the most retconned (using your definition of the word).

by **Jubilee** » Wed Dec 12, 2012 12:08 pm

chap22 wrote:nope, not letting you off the hook that easy.

you talk about how change is what comics need, how death is great, and how characters should evolve. then somebody gives you a prime example of a character evolving without dying...Cage got married, had a kid, gave up Avengering, and basically grew up. and then you make a crack that that's meaningless b/c now he's not in any monthly books so "hooray for progress". but that's the exact same end result as if he'd been killed. you don't want growth and change in comics either, unless it's the exact kind of growth and change that YOU want...namely death.

maybe when you actually grow up (like Cage did), you'll realize how badly you're talking out of your ass.

It's not just death. Characters retiring are great! Stuff like that is well done, which is why I've talked for the last few years about how much I've loved Luke Cage (Hell I remember saying he's been the best character for the last decade)

But Bendis' Avengers run was hilarious in how little it mattered. Luke Cage aside hardly any characters changed and that is the problem with superhero comics.

If you picked up Avengers before Avengers: Disassembled and then picked up the new Avengers fuck all has changed. A few people have joined the roster. The last ten years of Avengers stories are completely pointless.

Your favorite run ever is New Teen Titans. Perez has said he simply could not write that book in todays climate. Does that not worry you?

by **Jubilee** » Wed Dec 12, 2012 12:10 pm

mrorangesoda wrote:
But they're the most retconned (using your definition of the word).

Exactly!

These are the stories that most people buy. That most people talk about. That generate the most hype.

The comic companies then change the status quo back after them!

The idiots.

by **Jubilee** » Wed Dec 12, 2012 12:16 pm

It's quite simple, my viewpoint is.

a) Creators don't get enough creativity to write good stories
b) Comics from the big 2 are not comics. Mostly storyboards for movie ideas
c) Until this changes the current apathy to the big 2 will not change.

by **IvCNuB4** » Wed Dec 12, 2012 12:19 pm

Remember when this thread was actually about Gail Simone and DC bashing ? :lol:

by **S.F. Jude Terror** » Wed Dec 12, 2012 12:26 pm

God bless Twigglet.

by **bkthomson** » Wed Dec 12, 2012 12:35 pm

S.F. Jude Terror wrote:God bless Twigglet.

Twigg for President.

by **chap22** » Wed Dec 12, 2012 12:40 pm

Jubilee wrote:It's not just death. Characters retiring are great! Stuff like that is well done, which is why I've talked for the last few years about how much I've loved Luke Cage (Hell I remember saying he's been the best character for the last decade)

But Bendis' Avengers run was hilarious in how little it mattered. Luke Cage aside hardly any characters changed and that is the problem with superhero comics.

If you picked up Avengers before Avengers: Disassembled and then picked up the new Avengers fuck all has changed. A few people have joined the roster. The last ten years of Avengers stories are completely pointless.

Your favorite run ever is New Teen Titans. Perez has said he simply could not write that book in todays climate. Does that not worry you?

first of all, let's be real...George ain't that skilled a writer anyway. he helped Marv bounce ideas around, yeah, but George didn't "write" the book then.

and frankly, no it doesn't worry me, b/c i understand, appreciate, and like the Big 2 business model. and tbh, i think George is talking a bit out of his ass. the only character arc you might struggle with today would be Wally's, but DC just tried to do the exact same thing with Bart roughly 5 years ago. the problem wasn't that the company couldn't or wouldn't do it...it's that they did it badly. but back to Marv & George, what they did has been redone time and time again. while NTT was/is great, and groundbreaking at its time, no major established character died. nobody left the team who didn't eventually come back (although it took Wally a while, and didn't come back permanently). Terra's death didn't matter b/c she was some big name character with years of history, it mattered b/c of how the story was told. she was introduced in NTT #28, stayed in the book through #44, then died in Annual #3 which came out that same month. she was a character introduced solely for that book, that storyline, existed for less than 2 years, then completed her one arc. damn near any writer could do that today just as Marv and George did, if they have the skill to make you care about the new character they introduce.

if you looked at NTT 1, and NTT 45, the only differences in the team were Robin had a new name and costume, Wally was "retired", Donna was engaged, and there was one new character, Jericho. that's really it. it wasn't the end results that made that run special, as you seem to think is the only thing of any import to a story, it was the craft and fun of the ride to get there.

so no, i don't believe George. i don't believe that good stories can't be, and aren't, told today. i just think you need to get better writers to try to do it.