The Outhouse - The Greatest Comic Book Forum

[Victorian Squid]

No, I don't want you to "quantify" innovation--and don't you really just mean define?--because you'd just make the definition whatever suits you in this context.

However you personally rate its quality, most of the ideas in Hickman's FF run aren't new ones, no. When you say something is innovative and the next words are"...classic FF mix..." there's some cognitive dissonance there. And decompressing a story isn't a novel idea either, especially not today. Quite the contrary.

[Jubilee]

Some of us like the standard superhero fluff and aren't looking to have our minds blown with every issue of every book.

Comics are entertainment IMO. If I wanted something to really expand my mind I'd read something else.

Fair enough. I think that last line is a really sad indication of the industry though!

[chap22]

Well it was. I mean I read up to Jonny dying and came back.

It was my favorite Marvel book at the time.

I still don't see it as innovative. None of the characters were changed. There were a few new branches to already existing ideas, but it still remained at it's core a standard superhero story with "good v bad"

I see it as the best as a bad bunch.

"a few new branches to already existing ideas" is innovation. Franklin and Val were changed. new characters were introduced and brought into the fold. Reed adopted a new worldview going forward for how best to help people, and formed the Future Foundation, which continues to exist beyond Hickman's run. these are innovations to the FF book, whether you see that or not. are they drastic changes? no, not all of t hem. but they are substantial.

[oogy]

Fair enough. I think that last line is a really sad indication of the industry though!

I disagree. I'm not saying that comics can't do that, I just don't buy into the idea that every issue of every title needs to be groundbreaking, cutting-edge, blow your top, HOLY SHIT, type stories. On the flip side though, I don't want to read issues about Spider-Man spending his day grocery shopping, doing laundry, cleaning the bathroom, cooking dinner, and then doing the dishes.

[Jubilee]

I really haven't read enough of the book to talk about this.

I didn't get an innovative feel from the book though. To me it was fairly straightforward 23 pages, 6 issue arcs of fun.

I think we have different ideas of innovative. It's not just say Franklin becoming more grown up, it'd be experiments with the form. It'd say something new. FF ends itself to more "high concept" ideas than a standard superhero books, but new costumes and a "Future Foundation" don't really seem that interesting to me.

I have to admit though it was the best of a bad bunch. I was into it for a good while!

[Jubilee]

I disagree. I'm not saying that comics can't do that, I just don't buy into the idea that every issue of every title needs to be groundbreaking, cutting-edge, blow your top, HOLY SHIT, type stories. On the flip side though, I don't want to read issues about Spider-Man spending his day grocery shopping, doing laundry, cleaning the bathroom, cooking dinner, and then doing the dishes.

They don't have to be groundbreaking every issue, but I sure would like more experimentation and some forward movement though. Especially if I knew it wouldn't revert back.

If MORE books were being produced like Hickman's FF, I'd still be reading superhero comics to be honest. In fairness to Chap he does say Hickman has done what I wanted (I will probably buy the omnibus!) but there were still too many issues that I thought just perpetuated the stagnation.

[chap22]

No, I don't want you to "quantify" innovation--and don't you really just mean define?--because you'd just make the definition whatever suits you in this context.

However you personally rate its quality, most of the ideas in Hickman's FF run aren't new ones, no. When you say something is innovative and the next words are"...classic FF mix..." there's some cognitive dissonance there. And decompressing a story isn't a novel idea either, especially not today. Quite the contrary.

it's only dissonant, or a contradiction, if you stop reading before the "but" conjunction which is clearly there. and i'm not talking about decompression, i'm talking about long-form storytelling. hell, if anything my early complaints about Hickman was that his issues were too compressed, as i didn't think he was giving all his ideas enough room to breathe, until as i continued to read i saw them all expounded upon and given life.

and saying you didn't find it "as innovative" as others is absolutely quantifying innovation. you're making it a less than/more than exercise. there was new stuff done in the book...maybe not technical innovations like panel layout or storytelling technique, but i come back to Reed abandoning his old way of thinking and forming the Foundation, and its actual presence in the book from that point forward...that's a pretty radical shift in how FF stories are told and what they're about, while still remaining true to the core central element of betterment through scientific exploration.

[Victorian Squid]

I disagree. I'm not saying that comics can't do that, I just don't buy into the idea that every issue of every title needs to be groundbreaking, cutting-edge, blow your top, HOLY SHIT, type stories. On the flip side though, I don't want to read issues about Spider-Man spending his day grocery shopping, doing laundry, cleaning the bathroom, cooking dinner, and then doing the dishes.

Actually, I've got lots of comics I enjoy of people doing those very same things.

Of course there's a lot more at work in the comics I refer to than just dishes and laundry, but many feature what you might see as the mundanity of daily life.

I don't have a problem with why you or chap are saying you still read superhero comics, what I'm saying is that doesn't work for me. And part of the reason is stopped working for me was, in fact, Hickman's FF. Because I was only reading it still because I liked FF as a kid, outside of the nostalgia it had very little left to offer me, and I dropped it mid-way through the run like Jubilee did. It was okay, even good sometimes, but no longer useful to me.

[chap22]

I really haven't read enough of the book to talk about this.

I didn't get an innovative feel from the book though. To me it was fairly straightforward 23 pages, 6 issue arcs of fun.

I think we have different ideas of innovative. It's not just say Franklin becoming more grown up, it'd be experiments with the form. It'd say something new. FF ends itself to more "high concept" ideas than a standard superhero books, but new costumes and a "Future Foundation" don't really seem that interesting to me.

I have to admit though it was the best of a bad bunch. I was into it for a good while!

i'm not sure there was a 6-issue arc in the entire run.

and whether you find the idea of the Foundation interesting is something wholly different from whether it's new/innovative. which it is.

[Jubilee]

I often wonder how people like Chap and his ilk (not meant in a bad way) would respond to comics nowadays if they had never read them as a child.

Nostalgia is the number one driving force behind the industry

[False Prophet]

first of all, let's be real...George ain't that skilled a writer anyway. he helped Marv bounce ideas around, yeah, but George didn't "write" the book then.

and frankly, no it doesn't worry me, b/c i understand, appreciate, and like the Big 2 business model. and tbh, i think George is talking a bit out of his ass. the only character arc you might struggle with today would be Wally's, but DC just tried to do the exact same thing with Bart roughly 5 years ago. the problem wasn't that the company couldn't or wouldn't do it...it's that they did it badly. but back to Marv & George, what they did has been redone time and time again. while NTT was/is great, and groundbreaking at its time, no major established character died. nobody left the team who didn't eventually come back (although it took Wally a while, and didn't come back permanently). Terra's death didn't matter b/c she was some big name character with years of history, it mattered b/c of how the story was told. she was introduced in NTT #28, stayed in the book through #44, then died in Annual #3 which came out that same month. she was a character introduced solely for that book, that storyline, existed for less than 2 years, then completed her one arc. damn near any writer could do that today just as Marv and George did, if they have the skill to make you care about the new character they introduce.

if you looked at NTT 1, and NTT 45, the only differences in the team were Robin had a new name and costume, Wally was "retired", Donna was engaged, and there was one new character, Jericho. that's really it. it wasn't the end results that made that run special, as you seem to think is the only thing of any import to a story, it was the craft and fun of the ride to get there.

so no, i don't believe George. i don't believe that good stories can't be, and aren't, told today. i just think you need to get better writers to try to do it.

They lawyer speaketh what I couldn'teth.

[False Prophet]

A good commercial-property writer is like a good politician: honest, hard to find, and knowledgeable of the fact that he's merely a caretaker but capable to rising above it when when the occasion arrives. You'll have opportunities for greatness every now and again, but in the meantime don't fuck shit up.

[chap22]

A good commercial-property writer is like a good politician: honest, hard to find, and knowledgeable of the fact that he's merely a caretaker but capable to rising above it when when the occasion arrives. You'll have opportunities for greatness every now and again, but in the meantime don't fuck shit up.

well-put.

[Grayson]

end of the day, the model is to preserve and protect the characters. and guess what? i LIKE the characters! just like i'll happily plop down and watch hour and a half modernizations of classic Sherlock Holmes stories, or probably sit through a two-hour Bruckheimer 'splosion-fest of a Lone Ranger movie, i will be happy to know i can read Batman or Thing or Captain America stories for as long as the companies will publish them. I honestly don't read comic books hoping for innovative changes to the art form every month. i look for stories about characters i like..heroes overcoming villains and fighting evil...as a means of escapism from real life. for a couple hours a week i get to see familiar, long-loved good guys beat the stew out of bad guys. for that short period of time, it beats the shit out of reading a proposed contract, or writing a brief, or worrying about paying two house notes next month, or having to tell my kid 50 times to turn off the Playstation and go to bed and "if i have to come in there you're gonna get a spanking". if the stories feel familiar, i'm ok with that as long as there's some changes to the beats and some craft in the telling.

then i can enjoy the great stories that much more, b/c if they're rarer, and come about organically when a writer actually feels the creative muse, rather than trying to force a "classic" every month or so, it means more to me.

Chap, you once said you thought that I was dreamy after I made a post about not turning Billy Batson into just another angst-filled teen brat. I would like to return the favor. Well said sir, well said.

[oogy]

A good commercial-property writer is like a good politician: honest, hard to find, and knowledgeable of the fact that he's merely a caretaker but capable to rising above it when when the occasion arrives. You'll have opportunities for greatness every now and again, but in the meantime don't fuck shit up.

WERD!