The Outhouse - The Greatest Comic Book Forum

[Jubilee]

Where were you people complaining when Before Watchmen was being published?

When Superman's creators are getting screwed?

When McDuffie was canned?

Why does it take this for so many of you to get angry at the company?

[Punchy]

Where were you people complaining when Before Watchmen was being published?

When Superman's creators are getting screwed?

When McDuffie was canned?

Why does it take this for so many of you to get angry at the company?

The internet is gay for Gail Simone.

[Jubilee]

It's ridiculous the favoritism certain people get.

If you justified "Before Watchmen" because it was going to made money. Then you deserve this.

If you justified Supermans family getting money from WB because they signed a contract. You deserve this.

You get the industry you deserve. Too many of you don't vote with your wallet. You download stuff you like, you buy stuff you don't. You stick up for ideals now, but before you were fine with everything going on.

Creators keep getting screwed. Creators keep leaving the big 2, and the quality keeps declining. In the last few years Brubaker, Morrison, Millar and Vaughn have left the big 2. This is part of the reason why. But as long as it's "Crazy old Alan Moore" complaining you're ok to just laugh it off.

I'm so glad I'm done with this antiquated industry which is floundering in front of everyones eyes. Too many people are blaming Didio or Quesada. It's the whole industry.

[mrorangesoda]

Where were you people complaining when Before Watchmen was being published?

When Superman's creators are getting screwed?

When McDuffie was canned?

Why does it take this for so many of you to get angry at the company?

I'm not sure about the others, but the Before Watchmen threads/reaction was much bigger than this one. (Also, I think most people here weren't born when Siegel and Shuster were getting screwed)

But anyway- I think the 1-2 of this and Berger leaving/getting forced out has an impact on the reaction.

[Log-Man]

I recall extreme outrage to Before Watchmen and the Superman stuff has been a bone of contention for years. I honestly don't recall when McDuffie was fired, I think I wasn't reading comics at that time. (I still recall when he died, though.)

I think Orangesoda makes a good point, this on the heels of the Berger announcement is a double whammy of "WTF, DC?"

[Stalzer2002]

It's ridiculous the favoritism certain people get.

If you justified "Before Watchmen" because it was going to made money. Then you deserve this.

If you justified Supermans family getting money from WB because they signed a contract. You deserve this.

You get the industry you deserve. Too many of you don't vote with your wallet. You download stuff you like, you buy stuff you don't. You stick up for ideals now, but before you were fine with everything going on.

Creators keep getting screwed. Creators keep leaving the big 2, and the quality keeps declining. In the last few years Brubaker, Morrison, Millar and Vaughn have left the big 2. This is part of the reason why. But as long as it's "Crazy old Alan Moore" complaining you're ok to just laugh it off.

I'm so glad I'm done with this antiquated industry which is floundering in front of everyones eyes. Too many people are blaming Didio or Quesada. It's the whole industry.

For the most part, I agree. It's incredibly hypocritical that people turned their noses up at complaints by John Rozum, Mark Waid, Greg Rucka, Alan Moore and even Rob Liefeld are suddenly outraged over what happened to Gail Simone. But to lump the entire industry, even the big two, with Didio and Harras is unfair. My personal belief is that creators should have nearly the same amount of creative control of their big two work as they do their indy work. Only the most extreme stories should be rejected and editors should never make demands of a writer. I believe that unrestrained creativity makes for better stories and better stories makes for a stronger industry. In that that sense, neither Marvel or DC come close to my ideal, and they haven't for a very long time. But some people are worse than others. Ed Brubaker isn't leaving Marvel because he was screwed over and micromanaged by editorial. He's leaving because he's burned out on the big two superhero books and wants to do different things that he owns. That's a lot different than Greg Rucka leaving DC comics because over broken promises made by Dan Didio. You mention Before Watchmen, but it took 20 years for new Watchmen material to happen. Why? Because Paul Levitz didn't want to do more Watchmen. Within a couple of years of Dan Didio replacing him, we have new Watchmen material. Karen Berger, a DC editor, ran an imprint defined by creator control for nearly two decades with Levitz' blessing. Dan Didio demotes her and systematically dismantles everything she built within three short years.

The big two are far from ideal, but even in recent history, a lot of executives, including Alonso, Breevoort, Berger, Dunbier, Levitz and most of the time even Quesada have attempted to find some kind of middle ground. Not so with Didio and Harras. We hear a lot about their micromanagement because it is a level outside the norm, even for the big two. If they and their cronies were fired tomorrow, I doubt that DC would achieve my ideal. But odds are that they would be significantly closer to it than they are now.

[Drcharles]

Is DC imploding ??????

Firstly.....Certain new 52 DC books chopping and changing, (their Justice League book that fronted the new 52 is a prime example, & its so crap)

then.............Bad sales for November, and probably further bad saless for the months to follow....

now..........their top writers put up against the wall and shot,

Whats happening ?

Is this going to be the prelude for the original DC universe to come back ???????????????????

[Arion]

That's just truly appalling behaviour by DC.

DC has especialized in that in recent years it seems...

[TimDrake'sDumbWings]

My one problem with this particular firing is that it makes me hesitant to try other DC titles. Currently the only New 52 title I'm reading is Snyder's Batman. There are plenty of other titles that look interesting to me (Wonder Woman, Flash, Layman's Detective Comics, Earth 2), but I'm hesitant to try them if the creators I enjoy are more likely to be removed at a moment's notice. I mean, that was ALWAYS a possibility if the sales were low. But if high sales aren't even enough to protect well-loved creators, why should I invest my time and money into a new series?

How do you all feel about this reasoning?

[Arion]

For the most part, I agree. It's incredibly hypocritical that people turned their noses up at complaints by John Rozum, Mark Waid, Greg Rucka, Alan Moore and even Rob Liefeld are suddenly outraged over what happened to Gail Simone. But to lump the entire industry, even the big two, with Didio and Harras is unfair. My personal belief is that creators should have nearly the same amount of creative control of their big two work as they do their indy work. Only the most extreme stories should be rejected and editors should never make demands of a writer. I believe that unrestrained creativity makes for better stories and better stories makes for a stronger industry. In that that sense, neither Marvel or DC come close to my ideal, and they haven't for a very long time. But some people are worse than others. Ed Brubaker isn't leaving Marvel because he was screwed over and micromanaged by editorial. He's leaving because he's burned out on the big two superhero books and wants to do different things that he owns. That's a lot different than Greg Rucka leaving DC comics because over broken promises made by Dan Didio. You mention Before Watchmen, but it took 20 years for new Watchmen material to happen. Why? Because Paul Levitz didn't want to do more Watchmen. Within a couple of years of Dan Didio replacing him, we have new Watchmen material. Karen Berger, a DC editor, ran an imprint defined by creator control for nearly two decades with Levitz' blessing. Dan Didio demotes her and systematically dismantles everything she built within three short years.

The big two are far from ideal, but even in recent history, a lot of executives, including Alonso, Breevoort, Berger, Dunbier, Levitz and most of the time even Quesada have attempted to find some kind of middle ground. Not so with Didio and Harras. We hear a lot about their micromanagement because it is a level outside the norm, even for the big two. If they and their cronies were fired tomorrow, I doubt that DC would achieve my ideal. But odds are that they would be significantly closer to it than they are now.

Indeed, Didio is the worse thing that happened to DC and yet a lot of fans seem to love what he does.

For the record, when Before Watchmen was announced I said I was against it so many times that probably I got into the ignore list of Didio fans in this and other message boards.

[IvCNuB4]

Classy Lady to the end.

And she continues to be.

Gail Simone showed even more respect for DC Comics on Monday morning, pleading with her fans not to attack the publisher for their decision. "Guys, I'm hearing that people are getting personal nasty emails about this Batgirl thing. PLEASE don't do that," she wrote on Twitter. "No one is a villain here, it's just a thing that happens in all creative media. Please, please don't send anyone nasty emails. REALLY."

[nietoperz]

I disagree about Didio - not that I'm a fan or anything, but it seems to me that the real shit has hit the fan since Bob Harras was appointed EiC. I reckon he was the absolute worst thing to happen to the company - after all, it's Harras who has final editorial say over everything, and has a history of fucking that type of thing up royally.

[GOSD]

I'm finding myself buying less and less DC books every year.

I still don't like the changes to Superman, Barry is still the Flash, another GL?!? , JL is .

Thank God for Snyder and Tomasi or I probably would have cut even more titles. Suicide Squad (due to be canceled I'm sure - Fuck you, chap!), Blue Beetle (already canceled), Voodoo (canceled) were big hits for me but now, they're all done or soon to be.

Marcus To has left DC to do some freelance work. Gail is now gone.

DC is stumbling.

[TimDrake'sDumbWings]

I'm finding myself buying less and less DC books every year.

I still don't like the changes to Superman, Barry is still the Flash, another GL?!? , JL is .

Thank God for Snyder and Tomasi or I probably would have cut even more titles. Suicide Squad (due to be canceled I'm sure - Fuck you, chap!), Blue Beetle (already canceled), Voodoo (canceled) were big hits for me but now, they're all done or soon to be.

Marcus To has left DC to do some freelance work. Gail is now gone.

DC is stumbling.

I WOULD LOVE TO SEE TO AT MARVEL! Someone has to make that shit happen.

[GOSD]

I WOULD LOVE TO SEE TO AT MARVEL! Someone has to make that shit happen.

I know.

I talked to him about going to Marvel @ NYCC and he said maybe. He was tired of dealing with all the editorial changes that he had on Batwing and Robin. Stuff he didn't even want to talk about.

Such a pleasure to talk to though. A real nice guy. I hope he has continued success.