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Confirmed DC Cancellations: Vibe, Katana, Green Team

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Re: Confirmed DC Cancellations: Vibe, Katana, Green Team

Postby Arion » Fri Oct 18, 2013 6:37 pm

Chessack wrote:
I'm a huge Gail fan, but... frankly the Movement is not very good -- or at least the first 3 issues weren't, after which I bailed. And I'm not the only one. The thing sold 30k for issue 1, 18k for issue 2, 14k for issue 3, and now is down to just over 11k.

DC usually pulls the trigger once a book goes below 20k, and The Movement has never been above that except for issue 1. It's a little early to cancel it, but at some point their unwillingness to piss of Gail is going to be trumped by the fact that they can't bring in enough money from sales to even pay for the book's production. I'd say that limit is probably pretty close, if they're not already there.

Now... if they believe that ditching the Movement will cause Gail to leave DC completely and become a Dynamite exclusive or something, they might be willing to take the hit for a while. But we've already seen how DC doesn't seem to care how bloodied they get over creator walk-offs... so there's going to be a limit to this kind of restraint.

I would not be surprised if The Movement is over by issue 10 or so.


It might get cancelled before issue #10.

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Re: Confirmed DC Cancellations: Vibe, Katana, Green Team

Postby Chessack » Fri Oct 18, 2013 6:41 pm

I think it will be announced before #10, but will probably go to #10 before it actually stops, since they usually announce cancellations 2-3 months in advance.

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Re: Confirmed DC Cancellations: Vibe, Katana, Green Team

Postby Stephen Day » Fri Oct 18, 2013 7:04 pm

Herald wrote:
He pretended to be a bad Latino stereotype at first, so people would underestimate him. He soon dropped that pretense.


Yep, this what a lot of people really don't understand about the character. They look at the first few appearances and then jump to the conclusion that that's all there is to him.
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Re: Confirmed DC Cancellations: Vibe, Katana, Green Team

Postby SporkBot » Sun Oct 20, 2013 8:57 am

This gets me thinking...does this make Vibe and Katana "toxic" characters? As well as Mr. Terrific, Static, and other books that've been cancelled since the New52 started (how many is this? I've lost count). I mean, Cassie Cain had 70+ issue run. Stephanie Brown had about 24. Some of these titles never made it to 20, or in some cases, not even double digits.

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Re: Confirmed DC Cancellations: Vibe, Katana, Green Team

Postby Victorian Squid » Sun Oct 20, 2013 9:44 am

bkthomson wrote:
I've always felt in these cases go with a limited series first and then roll into an ongoing if it is a success or at least have a nice trade for a title.


But limited series don't have the draw they used to, shops are less inclined to order them and readers who are already hit by double-shipping and Bat-glut are more inclined now to either see a limited series as something that isn't a crucial part of the larger continuity or merely worth trade-waiting if they get around to it.

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Re: Confirmed DC Cancellations: Vibe, Katana, Green Team

Postby Chessack » Sun Oct 20, 2013 10:13 am

SporkBot wrote:This gets me thinking...does this make Vibe and Katana "toxic" characters? As well as Mr. Terrific, Static, and other books that've been cancelled since the New52 started


The question is toxic to whom?

And I think there are multiple answers.

To the DC front office, yes. DC blames the characters for a failure like this. And that is not new. It's happened for decades. It's never the fault of the lousy creators, always the fault of the characters. A character's book bombing can lead to the character being shelved for years, killed off, or fundamentally transformed, because, again, it must have been something about the character -- about Katana or Vibe -- that caused the failure. Not the fact that Ann Nocenti did a lousy job writing, etc. For example, with Katana, how much do you want to bet the post-mortem on this will be that Katana wasn't sexy enough and didn't show enough skin? That if she'd been more like Starfire, half-naked and jumping into bed with a different hero every issue, the book would have sold more? Thus, it is "Katana's fault" for not being sexy enough. This will at least make Katana, as presently incarnated, "toxic" enough not to warrant her own book for probably years. And it may lead to either her complete shelving as a character, or even a transformation of her into a more "attractive" version.

To the creators... yes and no. I think some creators may become gun shy of these characters. "Look what happened to Ann Nocenti when she tried to give this character a chance. I don't want it to happen to me." On the other hand, some creators do see this as a challenge. In the 1990s, the Matrix Supergirl character was not just toxic but radioactive. It was used badly by the creators, turned into a willing pawn of Lex Luthor, basically an unwitting supervillain, etc. It was viewed as an impostor unworthy to wear the "S" shield by the vast majority of Supergirl fans. They tried a mini-series to fix it, and it only made things worse (and bombed). by 1995 most people would say there was no chance this character would get an ongoing solo book, and a bunch of us were laying odds that it was only a matter of time before it was killed off. Then Peter David jumped from Marvel to DC and he asked to be given a shot at making Supergirl work. The result was an 80-issue run that stands as a testament to David's writing genius... and it was quite popular for years. So whereas most other writers wouldn't touch Matrix Supergirl by 1996, Peter David went out of his way to write her.

To the casual fans... probably yes. Anyone who was not a Katana fan and read this book would probably never pick up another book about Katana again, and one would not really blame them, having been burned like this. Their only exposure to the character is this dreck? Why would they ever be interested in her again?

To fans of the character... no, never. I've loved Supergirl since I was a kid. For 30 years she's been my favorite character in comics. I might hate what DC is doing to the current version of her (in fact I often do), but that doesn't change how much I like the base character. So if they cancel New 52 Supergirl, at this point it's so bad I won't do more than shrug (and in a way it might be a relief), but when Supergirl vol. 7 is tried some day down the line, I'll get it. Because it's Supergirl. A hardcore Katana or Vibe fan would feel the same way. In fact although I am not a hardcore Katana fan, I do like her a lot (I love martial arts characters), so I would willingly try another Katana series. Unless Ann Nocenti writes it.

For me, the toxicity doesn't revolve around the character but around the creative team. Ann Nocenti turned in this sewage? Well, I will think twice before reading something written by her again. In fact, a performance not much worse than this will often get a writer permanently banned from my collecting hobby -- such that, barring some very strong mitigating circumstance, I simply will not buy anything with their name on it. Currently sharing space on that list are such paragons of creative genius as Scott Lobdell, Brian Micahel Bendis, Grant Morrison, and after Trinity War/Forever evil, Geoff Johns. To me, it's those guys who are toxic, because their stupidity ruins stories, series, and whole character teams... not the characters themselves.

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Re: Confirmed DC Cancellations: Vibe, Katana, Green Team

Postby Victorian Squid » Sun Oct 20, 2013 10:51 am

Look...let's get one thing out of the way here. Naming a comic book series something most people wouldn't want to be caught dead reading is just Dumb. I know, I know. I'm still not gonna sit on a bus or anywhere else in public with my big, colorful copy of VIBE in view. I'm not gonna leave issues of VIBE laying around the apartment, or be overheard recommending to a buddy that they "check out the new VIBE".

Comic books have enough stigmas around them, we don't have to name them Captain Buttplug.

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Re: Confirmed DC Cancellations: Vibe, Katana, Green Team

Postby syxxpakk » Sun Oct 20, 2013 10:56 am

That is a fantastic point, Squid. Further, I'm probably not going to read a comic book in public with some big-tittied woman on the cover. I once took a copy of Wizard to my work (I'm a teacher) with Spider-woman on the cover. Immensely regret that decision.
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Re: Confirmed DC Cancellations: Vibe, Katana, Green Team

Postby Arion » Sun Oct 20, 2013 11:56 am

Chessack wrote:I think it will be announced before #10, but will probably go to #10 before it actually stops, since they usually announce cancellations 2-3 months in advance.


You're probably right about that.

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Re: Confirmed DC Cancellations: Vibe, Katana, Green Team

Postby Herald » Sun Oct 20, 2013 2:21 pm

Victorian Squid wrote:Look...let's get one thing out of the way here. Naming a comic book series something most people wouldn't want to be caught dead reading is just Dumb. I know, I know. I'm still not gonna sit on a bus or anywhere else in public with my big, colorful copy of VIBE in view. I'm not gonna leave issues of VIBE laying around the apartment, or be overheard recommending to a buddy that they "check out the new VIBE".

Comic books have enough stigmas around them, we don't have to name them Captain Buttplug.


Yes, let's get one excuse out of the way. There's a reason that Dan and the Gang had to name their book "Justice League of America's Vibe". It's because there's a big, colorful, major music magazine named "Vibe"...

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...and it's sold just fine despite this supposedly crippling name. There most likely have been people who have said, "Check out the new VIBE" with no problem.

So, what other excuses you got?? :wink:
Last edited by Herald on Sun Oct 20, 2013 2:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Confirmed DC Cancellations: Vibe, Katana, Green Team

Postby Victorian Squid » Sun Oct 20, 2013 2:25 pm

It's not an already looked down upon superhero comic book.

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Re: Confirmed DC Cancellations: Vibe, Katana, Green Team

Postby Herald » Sun Oct 20, 2013 2:26 pm

Stephen Day wrote:
Yep, this what a lot of people really don't understand about the character. They look at the first few appearances and then jump to the conclusion that that's all there is to him.


It was an Obfuscating Stupidity tactic that worked all too well on many readers.

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Re: Confirmed DC Cancellations: Vibe, Katana, Green Team

Postby Herald » Sun Oct 20, 2013 2:29 pm

Victorian Squid wrote:It's not an already looked down upon superhero comic book.


Reputations (deserved or undeserved) can improve. Even the X-Men got cancelled for lack of sales/interest the first time around...

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Re: Confirmed DC Cancellations: Vibe, Katana, Green Team

Postby Victorian Squid » Sun Oct 20, 2013 2:34 pm

Herald wrote:
Reputations (deserved or undeserved) can improve. Even the X-Men got cancelled for lack of sales/interest the first time around...


Yeah but this is Vibe we're talking about.

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Re: Confirmed DC Cancellations: Vibe, Katana, Green Team

Postby alaska1125 » Sun Oct 20, 2013 2:43 pm

Vibe was a decent book, much to.my surprise. I'm impressed it even got a shot.
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