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Captain Marvel not Billy Batson?

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Spektre
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Captain Marvel not Billy Batson?

Postby Spektre » Tue Jul 16, 2013 8:52 pm

So today I read the following.

"It should be noted that in the Golden Age, Captain Marvel and Billy Batson were not presented as one person, even giving each other Christmas presents. The relationship between them was never made completely clear, but they were not the same person."

My understanding is the origin story for Cap was very early in the character's publishing history and that this is not the case.

Any information on this issue?
Last edited by Spektre on Wed Jul 17, 2013 2:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
- Continuity is or it is not. There is no such thing as soft continuity.
- A character IS his continuity.
- Continuity is consistency of the characteristics of people, plot, objects, and places seen by the reader or viewer.

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Re: Cpatain Marvel not Billy Batson?

Postby Draco x » Tue Jul 16, 2013 9:17 pm

Where did you read this pray tell as this statement is very surprising?

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Re: Cpatain Marvel not Billy Batson?

Postby Spektre » Wed Jul 17, 2013 2:48 am

draco x wrote:Where did you read this pray tell as this statement is very surprising?


I don't claim accuracy. That's why I came here :)

http://www.comicscube.com/2011/08/reclaiming-history-superman-vs-captain.html
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- Continuity is consistency of the characteristics of people, plot, objects, and places seen by the reader or viewer.

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Re: Captain Marvel not Billy Batson?

Postby Spektre » Wed Jul 17, 2013 2:57 am

Ahh here is the strip I think he was referring to. He's taking a bit of a stretch I think.

http://ifanboy.com/articles/dc-historie ... in-marvel/

(Halfway down the page)
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- A character IS his continuity.
- Continuity is consistency of the characteristics of people, plot, objects, and places seen by the reader or viewer.

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Re: Captain Marvel not Billy Batson?

Postby Lord Simian » Wed Jul 17, 2013 6:56 am

Spektre wrote:Ahh here is the strip I think he was referring to. He's taking a bit of a stretch I think.

http://ifanboy.com/articles/dc-historie ... in-marvel/

(Halfway down the page)


"A bit of a stretch"? To base his claim that Billy and Marv are not the same person, even partially on a strip where Billy says explicitly "Of course, Marvel and I are the same person"?

A bit of bullshit seems more accurate... :)

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Re: Captain Marvel not Billy Batson?

Postby Punchy » Wed Jul 17, 2013 8:04 am

Ack, let's not make this a confusing Don Blake/Thor mess.

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Re: Captain Marvel not Billy Batson?

Postby David Bird » Wed Jul 17, 2013 8:54 am

Actually, I do recall that they originally switched places when Billy said Shazam, but its been a long time since I've read any Golden Age Captain Marvel.

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Re: Captain Marvel not Billy Batson?

Postby The Old Doctor » Wed Jul 17, 2013 11:22 am

Lightning strikes again.

Those were whimsical comics so don't take it too seriously more so as it was only done around the holiday's.
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Re: Captain Marvel not Billy Batson?

Postby habitual » Wed Jul 17, 2013 11:46 am

Captain Marvel and Billy Batson were never the same person in the original incarnations of the character. This goes back to the origin in Whiz Comics #1.

It was the same in Jeff Smiths recent Captain Marvel, and it was handled very well.

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Re: Captain Marvel not Billy Batson?

Postby Food Eater lad » Wed Jul 17, 2013 12:39 pm

If they are not the same person, then doesn't it ruin the whole purpose of Captain Marvel? Wasn't he supposed to embody the whole concept of wish fulfillment?

The orphaned, but hardy kid meets a wizard and is given super powers? That is what kids in the 40's ate up. Who would want to wish to be a kid who disappears and lets some one else fly to space and hang with martians?

Why not transform into an adult who does other people's taxes? That would be just as interesting. I mean, if you are going to blink out of existence, might as well make a good living while you are gone.
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Re: Captain Marvel not Billy Batson?

Postby Chesscub » Wed Jul 17, 2013 12:43 pm

habitual wrote:Captain Marvel and Billy Batson were never the same person in the original incarnations of the character. This goes back to the origin in Whiz Comics #1.

It was the same in Jeff Smiths recent Captain Marvel, and it was handled very well.

Hab


There was a missing section in Whiz Comics #1 with Chris Hansen going to the Wizard Shazam, why don't you take a seat and explain what you're doing.

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Re: Captain Marvel not Billy Batson?

Postby The Old Doctor » Wed Jul 17, 2013 12:55 pm

You could view that metaphysically, they are two people. Mind you, you could also view Captain Marvel as a soul-less puppet controlled by Billy.

In some ways, it's almost something that Alan Moore could and probably would have examined had he stayed with Marvel Man/Miracle Man. When Mick transformed into MM, it was explained that thanks to some technology, he was swapping bodies with an altered clone. Thing is, was his mind really transferred? What of his soul? Was he transferring or was he really just controlling the clone as a puppet? Insert standard OHer joke about Jude and Simian here. These same ideas could be thought in with Captain Marvel. Then of course, there's the question of why Mary stayed her age as did Freddy, yet not Billy or the three Lieutenants. Insert Chris Hansen joke here.

But in the end... go have a beer and stare at the sexy women and men. It was just a whimsical comic and this is on par with the BBT question about where does Aquaman poop?
"Why are you pointing your screwdrivers like that? They're scientific instruments, not water pistols."
"Oh, the pointing again! They're screwdrivers! What are you going to do? Assemble a cabinet at them?"
"Are you capable of speaking without flapping your hands about?"
""Timey" what? "Timey wimey"?"

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IvCNuB4 wrote:The Old Doctor is Cat-Scratch ?
Well that explains a lot :lol:

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Re: Captain Marvel not Billy Batson?

Postby habitual » Wed Jul 17, 2013 1:09 pm

It's a bit hard to explain, but, originally Captain Marvel was a different aspect of Billy, which is why we saw the Thor/Don Blake, Miracleman/Micky Moran characters as separate entities.

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Re: Captain Marvel not Billy Batson?

Postby David Bird » Wed Jul 17, 2013 1:38 pm

Food Eater lad wrote:If they are not the same person, then doesn't it ruin the whole purpose of Captain Marvel? Wasn't he supposed to embody the whole concept of wish fulfillment?

The orphaned, but hardy kid meets a wizard and is given super powers? That is what kids in the 40's ate up. Who would want to wish to be a kid who disappears and lets some one else fly to space and hang with martians?

Why not transform into an adult who does other people's taxes? That would be just as interesting. I mean, if you are going to blink out of existence, might as well make a good living while you are gone.


That works on a meta-fictional level and became a part of the story, but it wasn't the original idea. Remember, in the early days of comics many of the things we see as obvious now were still being worked out.

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Re: Captain Marvel not Billy Batson?

Postby Spektre » Wed Jul 17, 2013 8:45 pm

habitual wrote:Captain Marvel and Billy Batson were never the same person in the original incarnations of the character. This goes back to the origin in Whiz Comics #1.

It was the same in Jeff Smiths recent Captain Marvel, and it was handled very well.

Hab


I'm willing to be convinced. Source material to back this up?
- Continuity is or it is not. There is no such thing as soft continuity.
- A character IS his continuity.
- Continuity is consistency of the characteristics of people, plot, objects, and places seen by the reader or viewer.

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