The Outhouse - The Greatest Comic Book Forum

[Rockman]

PHil Urich sucks at the hobgoblin, that much is certain.

He sucks as a villain totally. This may have been interesting, if we didn't know about it, but we do and it sucks. Having him be the "anti-pete" sucks.

So much more sucks about the book too. Why does pete need to act like a clutz on roller skates? Does skating good really run the risk of him being exposed on Spider-man? Do we need to be reminded every second on him and MJ aren't together anymore? Do we need to constantly have the horrible monologues and terrible dialogue?

[Spidey-Man]

You do realize the revelation with Ned as the Hobgoblin made no fucking sense whatsoever and had plot holes so thick they make George Lucas blush? Futhermore, correct me if I'm wrong here but um.. every story of the Hobgoblin in the 80s save for the Gang War because it seemed rush the revelation never really raised the question who the Hobgoblin was? Everytime that was the third concern of the story? The writers took their time.

And if you really read the Stern parts, he left the seeds of the evil twin all throughout his run.

Stern's reveal had plot holes too,. Namely, if you read Defalco's stories, there's no way it could be anyone but ned. (even though DeFalco claims it wasn;'t him().

Ned didn't work well, because, of the broken arm thing and being dead.

But Kingsley doesn't work because you have to rely on the lame "it was the evil twin" device. Which was a cliche even then.

But the point is, you didn't love kingsley then You loved the Hobgoblin.

[rdrsfn82]

I can see several tales of him returning just to spite Norman, Spidey, various criminal underworlders, and escaping as you said just because he's Kingsley. I don't care if Slott brings him back or not but the way he's currently playing it up sounds assuringly he understands nothing of the original Hobgoblin. The very paragraph I posted above shows it.

To compare Kingsley to the fucking no name clone is what pisses me off more because that's what Dan is comparing Kingsley too. Futhermore using cheap stunts to goat fans of Kingsley to come back.

If you bring him back various times to attack people, he just becomes another villain and loses what made him special.

It's like Carnage, who never should have been used after his one story.

Or Bane, who should have moved on to this current role that started around Rucka's Checkmate immediately after he fell. Maybe one more story like the Venom arc, but beyond that he shouldn't have been used in 99% of the stories he was in.

Or Doomsday who never should have been used again after killing Superman. Ever.

[HNutz]

I liked the first issue of big time alright. Each issue has been getting worse and worse though. Slott is the wrong guy for Spider-man.

This. And it started off SO good, too.

"It wasn't Roderick, it was his twin brother". I'm just going to keep telling myself that.

[Punchy]

All this fuss over a villain who is C-list at best.

Get a grip!

[Spidey-Man]

So what your saying is, Stern should never have wrote Spider-Man, because he put that plot point in his original run? Futhermore, your saying Stern should never have came back to revisit storyline that had an awful climax. Because that what the Hobgoblin Saga ended, awful. Here you had a thrilling rogue killed OFF PANEL and in A DIFFERENT COMIC.

What never should have been written was Ned being revealed as the Hobgoblin. It was stupid then as it was now. Futhermore, what your saying is a dude who actively played a part in the Hobgoblin Saga, who got "killed" also (people seem to forget the post issues in Web of Spidey that "cleared" the remainder of the Saga, yet left more holes).

Also remember when Stan Lee and Steve Ditko fought over who the original Green Goblin was going to be? Stan wanted someone close to Peter. Steve wanted someone who was a nobody. Stan won, Steve left the book.

To be the total anti-Green Goblin, the Hobgoblin had to be a nobody in Peter's life, Ned was a somebody. And even still you actually stomached the revelation what they gave with Ned as the Hobgoblin? Reading from Stern's to DeFalco's to PAD parts?

Im saying Sterns Hobgoblin Lives story was dumb. it's dumb to revist an old story just to retcon something with a character that no cared about then or now. It'd be like revisiting the Green Goblin reveal to reveal it was Betty's brother Bennet who died 40 yrs ago. Wooooo. awesome.

If stern wanted to do the reveal, he shouldnt have left the book.and the reveal would stupid enough then, but 20 yrs later, it's ridiculous. Let it go. No one was clamoring to redo the mystery.

By the time of the ned reveal, the hobgoblin character had been driven into the ground. the two issues of the reveal were well written but too little too late. the mystery had been dragged on too long

and now here comes stern even many more yrs later to do a reveal that is a big "Who gives a fuck"

and is just masturbation for the author.

Let's go retcon Who Shot JR because the reveal-Sue Ellen's sister-is stupid, and make it even dumber-some no name character no one ever used again .

and he was never the anti-green goblin, he just thought he was. He went crazy. He made it personal. and he even got involved in the Osborn lives.

Excatly like the GG who prior to the reveal, was not crazy and did not have a personal vendetta against Spider-Man but simply wanted to take over the mob!

[Zechs]

Stern's reveal had plot holes too,. Namely, if you read Defalco's stories, there's no way it could be anyone but ned. (even though DeFalco claims it wasn;'t him().

Ned didn't work well, because, of the broken arm thing and being dead.

But Kingsley doesn't work because you have to rely on the lame "it was the evil twin" device. Which was a cliche even then.

But the point is, you didn't love kingsley then You loved the Hobgoblin.

Oh really? Stern tore apart every plot hole Ned as the Hobgoblin. From the broken arm to Ned getting one punched by Flash Thompson, to a better explanation why he picked Thompson (seriously when I was a kid and reading the letter pages of #275, even I couldn't buy Ned was the Hobgoblin).

No I love Kingsley. Kingsley is an arrogant smug prick. Which is why I couldn't believe the Kingsley we saw even in Stern's early stuff could be this corrupt dude who was targeted by a supervillain. However, other parts of him in DeFalco's run being calm and cool.

The retcon worked and all plot holes where perfectly in place. It's why nobody ever talks of it. Stern pulled off the greatest miracle retcon ever.

[Spidey-Man]

Further, when Norman was revealed as the Green Goblin,. he WAS a nobody. He had appeared less than Kingsley

In one panel as a background character and in one story.

that's it!

Even Harry had not appeared for the first 2 yrs of the Goblin's existence.

[Spidey-Man]

As Priest says, when you read DeFalco's storuies, it can;t be anyone but Ned

They kiled the character by not one, but two writers leaving the book without wrapping up the mystery and both refusing to tell their successors who it was. (each one having someone different).

[rdrsfn82]

The greatest retcon of all time is probably the Winter Soldier, which is greater than the Kingsley reveal, plus it actually mattered.

[Zechs]

Further, when Norman was revealed as the Green Goblin,. he WAS a nobody. He had appeared less than Kingsley

In one panel as a background character and in one story.

that's it!

Even Harry had not appeared for the first 2 yrs of the Goblin's existence.

Regardless, Norman was connected to Peter at the moment via the revelation being Harry's friend and thus knowing his dad. Hence the entire point of the Green Goblin. He became a villain who Pete didn't know and yet became the most personal villain of all.

[Zechs]

The greatest retcon of all time is probably the Winter Soldier, which is greater than the Kingsley reveal, plus it actually mattered.

Okay your right. But still that retcon is up there.

[Rockman]

All this fuss over a villain who is C-list at best.

Get a grip!

If Slott's stuff was any good it wouldn't matter, but since it sucks...

[Spidey-Man]

it's the worst crap when they go back and 'fix" an issue from 20 yrs ago that has been nagging them but that fans haven't even thought about in yrs because the characters or plots at issue had become irrelevant

its like 'fixing' the 50s cap when thomas did that. no one fucking cared that Cap had appeared in 4 issues in the 50s.

It would be like me retconning the Armagedoon 2000 reveal of Monarch as Hawk, switched at the last second from Captain Atom because it leaked. Hawk doesnt make any sense.

But who gives a fuck? it was 20 yrs ago.

[rdrsfn82]

Okay your right. But still that retcon is up there.

I can name a bunch more.

Earth-2 being where all the old stories took place.

Wolverine.

Sabertooth.

The Speed Force.

Byrne's Superman.

Perez's WW.

I could continue, but I don't care.