The Outhouse - The Greatest Comic Book Forum

by **Punchy** » Wed Feb 02, 2011 7:14 am

Zechs wrote:
The reason? To bait fans of Kingsley into buying this comic.

Because they need 4 extra sales a month!

by **Spidey-Man** » Wed Feb 02, 2011 10:12 am

There are hobgoblin fans.

What Kingsley fans are there? Kinglsey was the Hobgoblin in one or two stories, besides Spider-Girl.

by **Zechs** » Wed Feb 02, 2011 12:10 pm

Brain of Steel wrote:There are hobgoblin fans.

What Kingsley fans are there? Kinglsey was the Hobgoblin in one or two stories, besides Spider-Girl.

He was the Hobgoblin for all of Stern's stories. That's six stories."Ned" was Hobby for three. Kingsley in Spider-Girl appeared in five stories. Go to CBR's Spider-Man, there's an over 1,000 post thread on Kingsley there.

I like the fact you're trying to twist this to Slott's logic. Kingsley was the original Hobgoblin, end of story. Stern had the final say so on the matter. Every move in Stern and most of DeFalco's works fit perfectly with this answer. You put the mask on anyone else and they're a totally different character. Macendale was a chump merc who got one punched 75% of the time by Spidey. ? from Secret War had Macendale qualities. Phil is an utter nutcase. How does this fit that every man who wore the Hobgoblin mask is the same?

by **Zechs** » Wed Feb 02, 2011 12:18 pm

Punchy wrote:
Because they need 4 extra sales a month!

No they realize they're at rock bottom and that fans aren't buying anymore as they used too. This is them trying to get people like me into buying the book again. Well guess what? It failed for me and others.

by **Doozer** » Wed Feb 02, 2011 2:38 pm

Zechs wrote:
No they realize they're at rock bottom and that fans aren't buying anymore as they used too. This is them trying to get people like me into buying the book again. Well guess what? It failed for me and others.

ASM is still a 55k+ book, that's hardly rock bottom, even healthy in the context of today's market. Unit sales are down across the board, but that has nothing to do with jobbers getting jobbed.

by **Rockman** » Wed Feb 02, 2011 2:41 pm

Doozer wrote:

ASM is still a 55k+ book, that's hardly rock bottom, even healthy in the context of today's market. Unit sales are down across the board, but that has nothing to do with jobbers getting jobbed.

ASM should be the top selling book on the stands. He's only like the second most popular superhero ever.

by **Doozer** » Wed Feb 02, 2011 2:48 pm

AMS wrote:
ASM should be the top selling book on the stands. He's only like the second most popular superhero ever.

The top 10-15 is always dominated by the likes of Bendis, Morrison, event books and #1s. It gets hard to blame Marvel and DC for their reliance on gimmicky events and renumbering when those are what consumers gobble up. 55k is a low number historically, but given the current market, and what is consistently above it in the monthly sales, it's doing pretty well.

by **Spidey-Man** » Wed Feb 02, 2011 2:51 pm

Zechs wrote:
He was the Hobgoblin for all of Stern's stories. That's six stories."Ned" was Hobby for three. Kingsley in Spider-Girl appeared in five stories. Go to CBR's Spider-Man, there's an over 1,000 post thread on Kingsley there.

I like the fact you're trying to twist this to Slott's logic. Kingsley was the original Hobgoblin, end of story. Stern had the final say so on the matter. Every move in Stern and most of DeFalco's works fit perfectly with this answer. You put the mask on anyone else and they're a totally different character. Macendale was a chump merc who got one punched 75% of the time by Spidey. ? from Secret War had Macendale qualities. Phil is an utter nutcase. How does this fit that every man who wore the Hobgoblin mask is the same?

No. He was just Hobgoblin. He had no Kingsley identity.

Just like the green Goblin was just the Goblin. Norman wasn't part of that until the reveal. Then it can be said you love Norman

You just loved Hobgoblin. Whoever he would have turned out to be.

and no, DeFalco claims his Hobgoblin wasn't Kingsley or Leeds.

by **Rockman** » Wed Feb 02, 2011 2:53 pm

Doozer wrote:
The top 10-15 is always dominated by the likes of Bendis, Morrison, event books and #1s. It gets hard to blame Marvel and DC for their reliance on gimmicky events and renumbering when those are what consumers gobble up. 55k is a low number historically, but given the current market, and what is consistently above it in the monthly sales, it's doing pretty well.

DC at least put Morrison on Batman who is probably the most popular comic character of all time.

Who does Marvel put on the book? Well for two years it's a rotating team so there is no consistent quality, then they put Dan Slott whose never had a high selling book in his career to my knowledge.

If Spidey isn't in the top ten every month then why aren't they trying to fix that? Back when JMS was on the title Spidey was consistently a top seller, and parts of his run were pretty bad at one point.

by **Spidey-Man** » Wed Feb 02, 2011 2:55 pm

You may want to Check out Back Issue #35 interesting stuff

I just got a copy of Back Issue 35, where this article appears ("When Hobby Met Spidey"). It's a fascinating interview that definitely paints Owsley/Priest in a bad light. I thought it was really interesting to read who each creator wanted as Hobgoblin:

Roger Stern - Roderick Kingsley, Daniel Kingsley
Tom DeFalco - Richard Fisk
Peter David - Ned Leeds
Owsley/Priest - The Foreigner

Ultimately, Ned Leeds was chosen as Hobgoblin due to Owsley/Priest's constant badgering of Tom DeFalco and he didn't want to tell him the true identity because he didn't trust Owsley/Priest. DeFalco then wrote Ned Leeds as the prime suspect but a month before the big reveal, Owsley/Priest killed Leeds off in Spider-Man vs. Wolverine. DeFalco claims this was an act to simply screw with his continuity. It was PAD's task to salvage what he could of the situation and bring the whole Hobgoblin mystery to an end. Very interesting stuff...

by **Zechs** » Wed Feb 02, 2011 2:56 pm

Doozer wrote:

ASM is still a 55k+ book, that's hardly rock bottom, even healthy in the context of today's market. Unit sales are down across the board, but that has nothing to do with jobbers getting jobbed.

He's Marvel's best hero and he's only getting 55,000? I remember a time Slott made a bet with people on Rama that if the book ever went down 70,000 in the early months of BND he do something. Course he never did when the book went slid down to that.

Spidey should be the second or first best selling book at Marvel. But it ain't.

by **Spidey-Man** » Wed Feb 02, 2011 2:57 pm

Hobgoblin story. This article takes seperate interviews from Roger Stern, John Romita, Jim Shooter, Tom DeFalco, Ron Frenz ,Peter David and Jim Owsley (aka Christopher Priest) over 14 pages. This helps explain many things, such as the confusion of the Hobgoblins ID, the reason it dragged on WAY too long, why there were so many annoying fill ins marring the wonderful DeFalco/Frenz run and why they quit, the reason Ned Leeds was killed 4 months before being revealed as the Hobgoblin, and the reason for the Hobgoblin Lives mini series.

Basically, the bad guy in the whole thing appears to be Owsley. Owsley has his POV, but every other person interviewed (at different times) have pretty much the same story blaming Owsley. For Anybody who wants to read BI #35, I am going to discuss some things that you may want to read for yourself:

Basically, Stern wanted the Hobby to be Rod Kingsley from the get go, but Defalco didn't think he worked since Kingsley and Hobby appeared together (which Stern had an answer for) After Owsley became editor he basically (according to everyone) became a pain in the ass. He kept scheduling fill in's saying DeFalco & Frenz were late, when according to Virginia Romita they were 6 months ahead! Owsley demanded to know who Hobby was so Defalco told him Ned Leeds (which was not true). Eventualy defalco & Frenz were kicked off the book and according to Peter David, Owsley killed off Ned Leeds just to piss off DeFalco. Now Owsley wanted David to wrap up the Hobby story, but looking back there was nobody else who it could be but Leeds, since DeFalco purposley led people to believe it WAS Leeds. Apparently DeFalco wanted Hobby to be Richard Fisk, but everytime he tried giving hints the sub plots were removed by Owsley (because it was a secret from him) Confused yet?

Anyways, Peter David finally convinced Owsley that it HAD to be Ned, and it was a unique story- to reveal the Hobgoblin as a dead character. The whole thing was a total mess. As Roger points out (and I'd love to hear him comment on this post) Ned didn't work form the get go. Would a thug go to Leeds with the info of the Hobgoblins lair? And would Leed's kill theguy- with a bomb?? This never made sense to me either! So Roger eventualy got to do his take on the story

Theres a ton of details, but I found it an incredible read. In my opinion, I liked the idea of Richard Fisk being the Hobgoblin and Kingsley being the Rose. i wish it went down that way, but apparently we can blame Jim (Christopher j Priest) Owsley for the mess, if you believe Stern, DeFalco, Frenz, Shooter, David and John jr and Virginia Romita over him- which I do

so if DeFalco had his wauy, Fisk would be the Hobgoblin and Kingsley the Rose.

by **Zechs** » Wed Feb 02, 2011 2:59 pm

Brain of Steel wrote:

No. He was just Hobgoblin. He had no Kingsley identity.

Just like the green Goblin was just the Goblin. Norman wasn't part of that until the reveal. Then it can be said you love Norman

You just loved Hobgoblin. Whoever he would have turned out to be.

and no, DeFalco claims his Hobgoblin wasn't Kingsley or Leeds.

I know DeFalco claims his Hobgoblin wasn't Leeds. But you said yourself everyone believed him to be Ned who read the book. Your words not mine.

No I did not. I never loved it when he was revealed to be Ned Leeds. I always hated it. What part of that can't you understand?

by **Zechs** » Wed Feb 02, 2011 3:03 pm

Brain of Steel wrote:
so if DeFalco had his wauy, Fisk would be the Hobgoblin and Kingsley the Rose.

Why are you telling me information I already know? :smt017

I read Mad Goblin's Hobgoblin articles, this is the exact same stuff. I know Priest is the reason for the Ned mess because of that info and he himself killed Ned because he figured Ned wasn't going to be revealed as the Hobgoblin. Then PAD talked him into it. The Hobgoblin Saga is a notorious mess up there with the Clone Saga. Though at least it got a better end with Stern turning to give an actual better explanation.

by **Spidey-Man** » Wed Feb 02, 2011 3:06 pm

Zechs wrote:

Why are you telling me information I already know? I read Mad Goblin's Hobgoblin articles, this is the exact same stuff. I know Priest is the reason for the Ned mess because of that info and he himself killed Ned because he figured Ned wasn't going to be revealed as the Hobgoblin. Then PAD talked him into it. The Hobgoblin Saga is a notorious mess up there with the Clone Saga. Though at least it got a better end with Stern turning to give an actual better explanation.

In this article, the other players like PAD claim Priest killed Ned BECAUSE he was told by DeFalco that Ned was the Hobgoblin (DeFalco lied) and he wanted to fuck with DeFalco, so he killed what he thought was DefFalco's guy

they all basically respond to that post Priest had on his website and call him a liar about how the events went down.