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Five Things I Think I Know: The Out with the old DC, In with the DCNu" Edition

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chap22

Rain Partier

Postby chap22 » Tue Sep 06, 2011 9:11 am

Johns's Action was terrible, ESF. and i actually liked the New Krypton stuff, but his whole run leading up to it was garbage.

Up, Up and Away right after IC was great. Busiek's run was really good. Rucka's Adventures run was really good after a semi-slow start.

but yeah, other than that...hard-pressed to think of much in the way of good Supes over the last decade.
User avatar

mrorangesoda

FROGMAN

Postby mrorangesoda » Tue Sep 06, 2011 9:41 am

chap22 wrote:but yeah, other than that...hard-pressed to think of much in the way of good Supes over the last decade.


All Star, but that's out of continuity. Secret Identity, an elseworld. The main part of Cornell's run, but that's about Luthor.
User avatar

ElijahSnowFan

cheese

Postby ElijahSnowFan » Tue Sep 06, 2011 10:49 am

chap22 wrote:Johns's Action was terrible, ESF. and i actually liked the New Krypton stuff, but his whole run leading up to it was garbage.

Up, Up and Away right after IC was great. Busiek's run was really good. Rucka's Adventures run was really good after a semi-slow start.

but yeah, other than that...hard-pressed to think of much in the way of good Supes over the last decade.


Huh, even if you took out the Legion arc -- I know you don't care for the team -- you didn't like any of the other stuff?

I thought the Brainiac arc was fairly good -- I wasn't thrilled with Pa Kent dying, but hell, at some point, that simply becomes something that happens to move Superman forward, and while the art delays absolutely hurt the early part of the run, I didn't have a real problem with "Last Son." Plus, there was an annual or two in there that I liked, as well.
User avatar

Herald

Not a Kardashian

Postby Herald » Tue Sep 06, 2011 11:11 am

And, of course, the DCnU has completely different people in charge, so we can surely expect a different result than the pitiful handling of recent years--

--oh, wait. The SAME people are in charge.
Therefore, we can expect the SAME result.
The SAME piss-poor handling of characters, the SAME sorry storytelling.

Wiping out MOST -- not even ALL, remember -- of prior continuity isn't going to change the fact that the same creators and staff are still behind it all, still screwing everything up. The important factor that will yield TRUE change HASN'T changed.

Obviously, you guys who hated the DCU leading up to this, but are "trying the DCnU" want another serving of crap. :smt102
Good for you, I guess, because here it comes.

"Some people NEVER learn
So they will walk through the fire
And let it..."
User avatar

chap22

Rain Partier

Postby chap22 » Tue Sep 06, 2011 11:13 am

ElijahSnowFan wrote:
Huh, even if you took out the Legion arc -- I know you don't care for the team -- you didn't like any of the other stuff?

I thought the Brainiac arc was fairly good -- I wasn't thrilled with Pa Kent dying, but hell, at some point, that simply becomes something that happens to move Superman forward, and while the art delays absolutely hurt the early part of the run, I didn't have a real problem with "Last Son." Plus, there was an annual or two in there that I liked, as well.

Last Son was terrible fan-wank, built around 1 "fan", Richard Donner. i never cared about Chris Kent except when Busiek or somebody else wrote him. and the Brainiac arc was TURRIBLE. Pa dies (needlessly...fucking NEEDLESSLY) and Brainiac gets beat b/c he was scared to catch a cold. seriously? ugh.
User avatar

Punchy

Staff Writer

Postby Punchy » Tue Sep 06, 2011 11:13 am

But it's not the same, they have Lobdell now.

SCOTT LOBDELL WILL SAVE US ALL.
User avatar

ElijahSnowFan

cheese

Postby ElijahSnowFan » Tue Sep 06, 2011 11:24 am

Herald wrote:And, of course, the DCnU has completely different people in charge, so we can surely expect a different result than the pitiful handling of recent years--

--oh, wait. The SAME people are in charge.
Therefore, we can expect the SAME result.
The SAME piss-poor handling of characters, the SAME sorry storytelling.

Wiping out MOST -- not even ALL, remember -- of prior continuity isn't going to change the fact that the same creators and staff are still behind it all, still screwing everything up. The important factor that will yield TRUE change HASN'T changed.

Obviously, you guys who hated the DCU leading up to this, but are "trying the DCnU" want another serving of crap. :smt102
Good for you, I guess, because here it comes.

"Some people NEVER learn
So they will walk through the fire
And let it..."


I've been agreeing with you of late, because to be honest, you've had a lot of good points -- I've said it before, but in any other walk of life, Dan DiDio would've been shown the door right after OYL tanked -- but at the same time, only one issue of the revamp has come out.

I don't expect...anything. Good or bad. Because out of 52 books, there will be some of both.

I've always been honest about how poorly DC's been run for the last decade-plus -- how a company can tell a billion stories about Black Adam but completely ignore the fact that Billy Batson exists, the absolute garbage that was Green Arrow's life and times, the ridiculousness of Justice League for the last 35 issues, etc., etc. -- but at some point, Herald, I did realize one thing:

At this time, with comic book sales where they are, the enemy of my enemy...well, he's the guy we're left to work with.

Would I like to see Dan DiDio gone? Yeah, I would. I think the DC Universe would be better-served if there was another publisher -- and I don't think Jim Lee's the answer, either, to be honest.

But the problem isn't that simple, because they are there and they aren't leaving anytime soon. So...with one book out, I can't judge. It could be good, it could be bad. And at some point, we'll all have an opinion that we can base on what we've seen...but we're not at that point yet.
User avatar

ElijahSnowFan

cheese

Postby ElijahSnowFan » Tue Sep 06, 2011 11:26 am

chap22 wrote:Last Son was terrible fan-wank, built around 1 "fan", Richard Donner. i never cared about Chris Kent except when Busiek or somebody else wrote him. and the Brainiac arc was TURRIBLE. Pa dies (needlessly...fucking NEEDLESSLY) and Brainiac gets beat b/c he was scared to catch a cold. seriously? ugh.


Ha! When you put it like that... :oops: :oops: :oops: :wink: (I did like Brainiac up until the "Cold Complex.")
User avatar

xaraan

Staff Writer

Postby xaraan » Tue Sep 06, 2011 12:06 pm

Good article.

You hit the nail on the head with all the stuff about the old DCU. I worry because we have a lot of the same hands in the pot that got the DCU there to begin with. Sure they can pick over Marvel's formula and try to revamp things, but if they continue working and writing the same way they will just go back down the same road. So I'd have to say I'm curious too to see where we are in a year or two with these characters.

I honestly think Geoff Johns needs to push himself out of his comfort zone or they need to scale back what he does there. He seems great at the fanboy stuff of making old characters interesting; but it almost seems like he's a one trick pony. Was this revamp so they could just tell all the origin stories over instead of writing a new story, so they could tell about the first Batman/Joker fight again without having to write something new, the first Superman/Luther meeting, the JLA getting together, etc... Once they are through with that are they going to be able to create new stuff and new stories or are the going to just continue to gimmick fans to death with crossover events and fanboy stories that only appeal to the people already buying comics anyhow?
User avatar

BlueStreak

The Red Stands for Irony

Postby BlueStreak » Tue Sep 06, 2011 12:16 pm

xaraan wrote:Good article.

You hit the nail on the head with all the stuff about the old DCU. I worry because we have a lot of the same hands in the pot that got the DCU there to begin with. Sure they can pick over Marvel's formula and try to revamp things, but if they continue working and writing the same way they will just go back down the same road. So I'd have to say I'm curious too to see where we are in a year or two with these characters.

I honestly think Geoff Johns needs to push himself out of his comfort zone or they need to scale back what he does there. He seems great at the fanboy stuff of making old characters interesting; but it almost seems like he's a one trick pony. Was this revamp so they could just tell all the origin stories over instead of writing a new story, so they could tell about the first Batman/Joker fight again without having to write something new, the first Superman/Luther meeting, the JLA getting together, etc... Once they are through with that are they going to be able to create new stuff and new stories or are the going to just continue to gimmick fans to death with crossover events and fanboy stories that only appeal to the people already buying comics anyhow?


Actually, one of the reasons why they went with a "soft reboot" that didn't reset everything to a fixed starting point is so that they could avoid relying on the retelling the first encounters between everyone and focus instead on telling new stories that didn't rely on past continuity or history. Action Comics and the first arc of Justice League are the only comics that aren't set in the present and delve into specific backhistory of certain characters.

The solicitations to December particularly emphasized the "New Villains, New Stories" aspect of the DCnU. Hopefully, they won't revert to the tired old storytelling after the intial arcs are done.
User avatar

xaraan

Staff Writer

Postby xaraan » Tue Sep 06, 2011 12:22 pm

BlueStreak wrote:
Actually, one of the reasons why they went with a "soft reboot" that didn't reset everything to a fixed starting point is so that they could avoid relying on the retelling the first encounters between everyone and focus instead on telling new stories that didn't rely on past continuity or history. Action Comics and the first arc of Justice League are the only comics that aren't set in the present and delve into specific backhistory of certain characters.

The solicitations to December particularly emphasized the "New Villains, New Stories" aspect of the DCnU. Hopefully, they won't revert to the tired old storytelling after the intial arcs are done.



So you really think they won't be telling origin and meet up stories, even as flashbacks? I'd be surprised if we didn't see the first time Batman and Joker meet even if it happens mixed into a 'current' fight between the two as a flashback.
User avatar

BlueStreak

The Red Stands for Irony

Postby BlueStreak » Tue Sep 06, 2011 12:27 pm

xaraan wrote:

So you really think they won't be telling origin and meet up stories, even as flashbacks? I'd be surprised if we didn't see the first time Batman and Joker meet even if it happens mixed into a 'current' fight between the two as a flashback.


I certainly hope that DC wouldn't focus on that sort of stuff. The entire point of the DCnU is to loosen up continuity a bit and not force characters into certain boxes by providing "definitive" first stories that simply overlap with the next "definitive" origin story a few years down the line. DC already has like four Joker vs. Batman origin stories including one of the best-selling movies of all time. Who needs a fifth one that would only confuse new readers even more?
User avatar

xaraan

Staff Writer

Postby xaraan » Tue Sep 06, 2011 12:37 pm

BlueStreak wrote:
I certainly hope that DC wouldn't focus on that sort of stuff. The entire point of the DCnU is to loosen up continuity a bit and not force characters into certain boxes by providing "definitive" first stories that simply overlap with the next "definitive" origin story a few years down the line. DC already has like four Joker vs. Batman origin stories including one of the best-selling movies of all time. Who needs a fifth one that would only confuse new readers even more?



I hope you are right, but I don't have much faith in the industry in that area.

Origin and First meeting stories are something collectors/speculators look for, just like #1's and they will push that. I can easily see a generic storyline with a basic setup to pit one of the goodguys (supes, bats, whoever) against one of their foes and then using that story to drop in flashbacks or retellings or however it would be structured. Or they will just flat out show them having their first meeting. We are already seeing it with Darkseid in JLA.

I think you and them are not thinking the same thing when they say they want to be free from the constraints of continuity.
User avatar

Herald

Not a Kardashian

Postby Herald » Tue Sep 06, 2011 12:53 pm

xaraan wrote:

So you really think they won't be telling origin and meet up stories, even as flashbacks? I'd be surprised if we didn't see the first time Batman and Joker meet even if it happens mixed into a 'current' fight between the two as a flashback.


I'd say you can COUNT on it.

"Continuity Porn for even the most minor things. Writers will revisit old stories, instilling far more self-indulgent detail into the retellings than ever appeared in the original."

*points to Geoff's "When Brucie Met Hally" story*
User avatar

Herald

Not a Kardashian

Postby Herald » Tue Sep 06, 2011 12:59 pm

BlueStreak wrote:
I certainly hope that DC wouldn't focus on that sort of stuff. The entire point of the DCnU is to loosen up continuity a bit and not force characters into certain boxes by providing "definitive" first stories that simply overlap with the next "definitive" origin story a few years down the line. DC already has like four Joker vs. Batman origin stories including one of the best-selling movies of all time. Who needs a fifth one that would only confuse new readers even more?


Who needed umpteen retellings of Superman's origin in recent years??
And yet, we kept getting it (Birthright)... and getting it (Secret Origin)... and getting it (Earth 1)...

"Writers will revisit old stories, instilling far more self-indulgent detail into the retellings than ever appeared in the original."

Expect another Joker vs. Batman origin story.
These people just can't help themselves.

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