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[Grayson]

I'd say the same thing about the DCold too, though. Teen Titans hasn't been good since McKeever (and I'm admittedly biased on that), Justice League hasn't been good since Morrison and Firestorm...well, it's Firestorm.

A year ago, we had such brilliant comics such as Reign of Doomsday, Wonder Woman in a leather jacket, and evil Titans. People have had this tendency to romanticize the old DCU as if it wasn't also shit. It was shit and it was worse. The only difference is that there's less DC fanboys blindly supporting the company and claiming that Hawk and Dove isn't a sin against man.

Fair enough, however, I will say that a year ago Cassandra Sandsmark was still Wonder Girl with several years of great backstory and character development instead of being the Witchblade knockoff that they have turned her into. Justice League may have had some lack luster stories but at least the team wasn't filled with barely recognizable elitist snobs who could barely stand each other. As for Firestorm...you've got me there.

The point being, if given the choice between what we had and what we got, I would gladly take what we had. Sure, part of the reason is because I am a DC Fanboy but a big part of that reason is because Flashpoint, the reboot, and the DCnU as a whole were unnecessary. Animal Man, Aquaman, and Swamp Thing are all proof that with a great creative team, who are passionate about the characters they are writing, you can make any character relevant and people will want to read about them without making drastic changes to generate interest through shock value.

[Grayson]

There are just as many bad comics in DC's catalog two years ago as there are now. The only difference is that DC's actively cancelling bad books and putting out a few comics that most people agree aren't bad. They didn't have that one, two, or even three years ago.

But they didn't need a reboot to start canceling bad series. They could have simply said, "hey, here's a thought, why don't we cancel books that aren't working and replace them with new books?"

From there, it wouldn't be hard to create a formula where DC takes a look at the books that are cancelled and then why the fans aren't reading them. So then, you go back to the workshop and you say, "what do we need to do? Hey, that new guy Snyder has been doing some fun stuff at Vertigo and he has some interesting ideas for Batman. Maybe we should give him a shot."

[BlueStreak]

Fair enough, however, I will say that a year ago Cassandra Sandsmark was still Wonder Girl with several years of great backstory and character development instead of being the Witchblade knockoff that they have turned her into. Justice League may have had some lack luster stories but at least the team wasn't filled with barely recognizable elitist snobs who could barely stand each other. As for Firestorm...you've got me there.

The point being, if given the choice between what we had and what we got, I would gladly take what we had. Sure, part of the reason is because I am a DC Fanboy but a big part of that reason is because Flashpoint, the reboot, and the DCnU as a whole were unnecessary. Animal Man, Aquaman, and Swamp Thing are all proof that with a great creative team, who are passionate about the characters they are writing, you can make any character relevant and people will want to read about them without making drastic changes to generate interest through shock value.

I'm not defending the half-cocked manner in which they went about the reboot, but I'll take the results. Animal Man, Aquaman, Swamp Thing, I, Vampire, Demon Knights, and Wonder Woman are all books that are better than anything that was written in the two years prior to the reboot, save for Snyder's Detective Comics.

I completely understand anger that DC didn't make their bad books (such as Teen Titans, the entire Superman line, etc.) better. But I don't get thinking that somehow Action Comics or Superman is somehow worse than a fifteen part "Superman Walks America" or "War of the Supermen" storyline. Both are mediocre comics.

[Juan Cena]

Cause it's George freakin Perez. I pay to see his art and I trust him to draw more than some suit to tell him how. Even johns knew to let the man draw. All didio knows is how to rape a character to sell books. Ever since sue he's been screwing over the DCU

You should click on the article to see Perez's issues with Johns micro-managing on Lo3W.

[mrorangesoda]

Going back to May 2010, we had Brightest Day, still evil Titans, War of the Supermen, yawn-enducing Willingham JSA, no Snyder, Henderson written Titans, Magog, and Rise of Arsenal. Still plenty of crap, and that was with Azzarello's only contribution being First Wave (which lasted 4 issues?) and no Snyder whatsoever.

There are just as many bad comics in DC's catalog two years ago as there are now. The only difference is that DC's actively cancelling bad books and putting out a few comics that most people agree aren't bad. They didn't have that one, two, or even three years ago.

Stop making rational points in a DC thread.

[Juan Cena]

Still, DC hasn't fixed some of the basic problems affecting Superman in the past decade or so, such as Supes being a wuss, Supes as Clark being an awkward loser,

I'm not defending the half-cocked manner in which they went about the reboot, but I'll take the results. Animal Man, Aquaman, Swamp Thing, I, Vampire, Demon Knights, and Wonder Woman are all books that are better than anything that was written in the two years prior to the reboot, save for Snyder's Detective Comics.

I completely understand anger that DC didn't make their bad books (such as Teen Titans, the entire Superman line, etc.) better. But I don't get thinking that somehow Action Comics or Superman is somehow worse than a fifteen part "Superman Walks America" or "War of the Supermen" storyline. Both are mediocre comics.

Morrison's "Occupy" Superman hasn't been much better than "Supes Walks America." I won't even get into the merry-go-round that is the Superman book.

And DC hasn't fixed some of the basic problems affecting Superman in the past decade or so, such as Supes being a wuss, Supes as Clark being an awkward loser, etc. Heck, even when Supes went after the child killer he acted more like Glenn Close in "Fatal Attraction" than Superman.

[Juan Cena]

Stop making rational points in a DC thread.

Because all Marvel threads are filled with logical arguments, right?

[TROY]

But did we need at reboot to jazz up the line? Or creators ready to create?
Sales wise many titles are at or below what they sold pre reboot. The reboot gave them a bump but what then? it's clear from Perez no thought was put into the reboot long term hence all the creative changes already

Yeah I have been saying since the get go that the whole grand plan they had was a load of shit. They were changing creative teams on some books for the books even came out. Most books have had little to no direction moving forward, with really the only books that do are the ones that really didn't change all that much in the first place. There a few exceptions like Animal Man and Swamp Thing that are clearly better than anything that was being done with the characters pre reboot but the reboot would not have been needed to make those changes.

[Chris]

Going back to May 2010, we had Brightest Day, still evil Titans, War of the Supermen, yawn-enducing Willingham JSA, no Snyder, Henderson written Titans, Magog, and Rise of Arsenal. Still plenty of crap, and that was with Azzarello's only contribution being First Wave (which lasted 4 issues?) and no Snyder whatsoever.

There are just as many bad comics in DC's catalog two years ago as there are now. The only difference is that DC's actively cancelling bad books and putting out a few comics that most people agree aren't bad. They didn't have that one, two, or even three years ago.

My issue is more that a reboot wasn't needed to fix the line (which they havne't really done anyway)

You couldn't do I, Vampire in the Old DCU? Demon Knights? JL: Dark? Animal Man? Swamp Thing?

Wonder Woman is the only major book that benefitted greatly from the reboot.

Everything else could've been done either by just.. doing it.. or by focusing talent on said books like they have done.

[holtom2000]

I'm not defending the half-cocked manner in which they went about the reboot, but I'll take the results. Animal Man, Aquaman, Swamp Thing, I, Vampire, Demon Knights, and Wonder Woman are all books that are better than anything that was written in the two years prior to the reboot, save for Snyder's Detective Comics.

I completely understand anger that DC didn't make their bad books (such as Teen Titans, the entire Superman line, etc.) better. But I don't get thinking that somehow Action Comics or Superman is somehow worse than a fifteen part "Superman Walks America" or "War of the Supermen" storyline. Both are mediocre comics.

Aquaman, animal man and swamp thing did not need the reboot to succeed. And heck firestorm had a great storyline dropped at the end of brightest day. Titans, hawkman, green arrow are also drastically changed for the worse

[BlueStreak]

Morrison's "Occupy" Superman hasn't been much better than "Supes Walks America." I won't even get into the merry-go-round that is the Superman book.

And DC hasn't fixed some of the basic problems affecting Superman in the past decade or so, such as Supes being a wuss, Supes as Clark being an awkward loser, etc. Heck, even when Supes went after the child killer he acted more like Glenn Close in "Fatal Attraction" than Superman.

The bolded part is the thing to take away from it.

Some of these books haven't been good in a while. Stop pretending like they were.

I'll take Lobdell terribly writing some characters that fanboys have little attachment to then people trying to say that Felicia Henderson's Teen Titan run isn't utter crap because ten years ago they liked a book featuring Tim, Cassie and Superboy.

[Juan Cena]

The bolded part is the thing to take away from it.

Some of these books haven't been good in a while. Stop pretending like they were.

I'll take Lobdell terribly writing some characters that fanboys have little attachment to then people trying to say that Felicia Henderson's Teen Titan run isn't utter crap because ten years ago they liked a book featuring Tim, Cassie and Superboy.

The quality of writing on the Superman books didn't take as big a hit in the late-90's early-Aughts as it has now. And even then, he was still a stronger character (as either Supes or Clark) than either post-IC Supes or Nu-Supes.

[Stalzer2002]

Perez expressed a similar sentiment at another show earlier this year.

http://www.pissues.com/2012/02/5th-panel-review-wizard-world-new.html

George even made the comment that his and Marv Wolfman's New Teen Titans run would never happen in today's landscape, because of the restrictions on using certain characters or wanting to involve them in certain stories.

That, right there, perfectly describes why the big two are circling down the drain.

[holtom2000]

You should click on the article to see Perez's issues with Johns micro-managing on Lo3W.

I did. Did he not basically tell johns to back off and he did?

[Grayson]

Some of these books haven't been good in a while. Stop pretending like they were.

It really wasn't that long ago that Teen Titans was a really good book. It's not like somebody came along and did such irreparable damage to the brand that they couldn't just put a good writer on the book to fix things.

I'll take Lobdell terribly writing some characters that fanboys have little attachment to

Lobdell is writing Teen Titans, Superboy, Red Hood and the Outlaws, and soon Superman. Aside from Bunker, Skitter, and Solstice who are these characters than fanboys don't have an attachment to? Tim Drake and Superboy were popular enough to have a long running solo series. Starfire and Roy Harper have been major parts of the Teen Titans for years.

then people trying to say that Felicia Henderson's Teen Titan run isn't utter crap because ten years ago they liked a book featuring Tim, Cassie and Superboy.

Yeah but without the reboot the Tim, Cassie, and Superboy from 10 years ago would still exist and Scott Lobdell or any writer could continue to write about them. Lets say that after his run on Batman and Swamp Thing, DC decides to hand Scott Synder the reins of Teen Titans. He and any subsequent writer, now have to write the DCnU versions of the characters instead of the previous incarnations. This is one of my biggest problems with the reboot. I have no attachment these new versions of any of these new characters and because of that, I do not feel compelled to buy their comics. Top it off with the fact that the stories are as bad as, if not worse than the previous stories...and I just don't see how the ends justify the means. So yes, maybe the books sucked at the time of the relaunch but they still suck now and we are left with stripped down characters devoid of any growth or development.