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I'm Getting Pissed Off Again With Comics

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The Old Doctor
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Re: I'm Getting Pissed Off Again With Comics

Postby The Old Doctor » Sat Sep 21, 2013 12:24 pm

chap22 wrote:One key distinction should probably be made:

There is a difference in decompression, and "padding". Decompression by itself is fine. Padding, which you guys are really describing now, is an abomination against mankind.


There's also "milking". Stretching out the decompression so much that barely anything, it anything really happens in the over all story. Anime, manga and even American tv series do this.

"Padding" is when they add superfluous material to extend the story. That extra tale that really does nothing for the story.

As for decompression to fit a trade, this is really a good idea. With manga they note the page count for the collections so they can make sure have some sense of closure but also have a far more sell-able product for potential new readers as well as for old. Seeing that in American comics is a good thing. Also, it makes me think of the old American Flagg series with it's structure for it's first twelve issues. Classic execution.
"Why are you pointing your screwdrivers like that? They're scientific instruments, not water pistols."
"Oh, the pointing again! They're screwdrivers! What are you going to do? Assemble a cabinet at them?"
"Are you capable of speaking without flapping your hands about?"
""Timey" what? "Timey wimey"?"

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IvCNuB4 wrote:The Old Doctor is Cat-Scratch ?
Well that explains a lot :lol:

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Re: I'm Getting Pissed Off Again With Comics

Postby The Old Doctor » Sat Sep 21, 2013 12:28 pm

Chessack wrote:
Well, I guess what we are talking about is decompression being done for the sake of padding, rather than because the story calls for it, or could be improved by it.

One of the things that really strikes me about most New 52 comics is that here we are, depending on the title, 18, 24 issues into these series, and in many cases I have no real feel for the characters. WW is well characterized in her own series (though it seems to be almost like an Elseworlds since she is completely different when written by every other writer). So I have a good sense of her character. But for many of the other series stars, the writers do so little to reveal character that I have no good sense of who they are, as people. New 52 Supergirl is a great example again... 24 issues in, and all I know about her is that she's an angry teen who loses her temper a lot. There's been no exploration of the deeper parts of her personality, and her reaction to losing her whole world and family and all that has been just surface-based. One or two panels of quiet reflection in 24 issues are not sufficient to reveal character.

So many DC characters are just cardboard cut-outs now, that it's hard to decide if I like them or not. All they really seem to do is fight other characters, often for little or no good reason, because DC seems to think that all we readers want is double-page action shots (I'm looking right at you, Justice League 23). Action may be fun but it hardly ever reveals character. And it's really the personalities of these characters that make them who they are, and make us want to cheer for them (and buy their books).


That was one of the things that turned me off of the 52. The lack of really character development, compared to older DC product. My thoughts are with this sort, they may as well go back to the golden age/silver age model of barely any continuity and just show a near mindless adventure. With Supergirl it was annoying that they could not be bothered to get over some concepts such as the angry teen, the "Kal-El cannot be my cousin", Superboy is a clone and I'll kill him for that...
"Why are you pointing your screwdrivers like that? They're scientific instruments, not water pistols."
"Oh, the pointing again! They're screwdrivers! What are you going to do? Assemble a cabinet at them?"
"Are you capable of speaking without flapping your hands about?"
""Timey" what? "Timey wimey"?"

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IvCNuB4 wrote:The Old Doctor is Cat-Scratch ?
Well that explains a lot :lol:

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Re: I'm Getting Pissed Off Again With Comics

Postby Chessack » Sat Sep 21, 2013 2:51 pm

Cat-Scratch wrote:That was one of the things that turned me off of the 52. The lack of really character development, compared to older DC product. My thoughts are with this sort, they may as well go back to the golden age/silver age model of barely any continuity and just show a near mindless adventure. With Supergirl it was annoying that they could not be bothered to get over some concepts such as the angry teen, the "Kal-El cannot be my cousin", Superboy is a clone and I'll kill him for that...


Yes, I agree with all of that.

The "teen rage" thing is just so old with Kara, since they already did this in the previous incarnation. By the way, so is the incredibly trite "I have amnesia and can't remember the most important and significant part of my origin, which has always been that I actually witnessed the destruction of my homeworld, which my cousin did not. But oops, I don't remember it, so now let's take 20-30 issues to just convince me that Krypton is gone, my parents are dead, and I'm not just dreaming all of this."

I mean just... ugh. Can't they come up with anything better than this stuff?

I guess not.... sigh.

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Re: I'm Getting Pissed Off Again With Comics

Postby The Old Doctor » Sat Sep 21, 2013 3:27 pm

Chessack wrote:
Yes, I agree with all of that.

The "teen rage" thing is just so old with Kara, since they already did this in the previous incarnation. By the way, so is the incredibly trite "I have amnesia and can't remember the most important and significant part of my origin, which has always been that I actually witnessed the destruction of my homeworld, which my cousin did not. But oops, I don't remember it, so now let's take 20-30 issues to just convince me that Krypton is gone, my parents are dead, and I'm not just dreaming all of this."

I mean just... ugh. Can't they come up with anything better than this stuff?

I guess not.... sigh.


Yeah, they seem not able to or do so in a timely manner. I don't mind retreading older stuff as it was part of the character, but move on and build on it.
"Why are you pointing your screwdrivers like that? They're scientific instruments, not water pistols."
"Oh, the pointing again! They're screwdrivers! What are you going to do? Assemble a cabinet at them?"
"Are you capable of speaking without flapping your hands about?"
""Timey" what? "Timey wimey"?"

Image
IvCNuB4 wrote:The Old Doctor is Cat-Scratch ?
Well that explains a lot :lol:

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Re: I'm Getting Pissed Off Again With Comics

Postby 3MJ » Sat Sep 21, 2013 3:43 pm

The actual format of comics is awful. Absolutely awful. 22 pages a month?

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Re: I'm Getting Pissed Off Again With Comics

Postby The Shadow » Sat Sep 21, 2013 6:21 pm

Chessack wrote:In issue after issue it was, "Heroes show up, H'el and Supergirl fight them, heroes are beaten back." Each subsequent issue it was just "lather, rinse, repeat."

Isn't that the case with ANY comic though?

Doc Ock does something villainous. Spider-Man shows up. Doc slightly gets the upper hand but eventually Spider-Man is victorious and Doc either escapes or goes to jail.

Green Goblin does something villainous. Spider-Man shows up. Goblin slightly gets the upper hand but eventually Spider-Man is victorious and Goblin either escapes or goes to jail.

Rhino does something villainous. Spider-Man shows up. Rhino slightly gets the upper hand but eventually Spider-Man is victorious and Rhino either escapes or goes to jail.

Scorpion does something villainous. Spider-Man shows up. Scorpion slightly gets the upper hand but eventually Spider-Man is victorious and Scorpion either escapes or goes to jail.

Isn't that just "lather, rinse, repeat" too?

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Re: I'm Getting Pissed Off Again With Comics

Postby The Shadow » Sat Sep 21, 2013 6:25 pm

chap22 wrote:One key distinction should probably be made:

There is a difference in decompression, and "padding". Decompression by itself is fine. Padding, which you guys are really describing now, is an abomination against mankind.

Can you define/explain the difference?

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Re: I'm Getting Pissed Off Again With Comics

Postby Arion » Sat Sep 21, 2013 6:49 pm

Chessack wrote:
Yes, I agree with all of that.

The "teen rage" thing is just so old with Kara, since they already did this in the previous incarnation. By the way, so is the incredibly trite "I have amnesia and can't remember the most important and significant part of my origin, which has always been that I actually witnessed the destruction of my homeworld, which my cousin did not. But oops, I don't remember it, so now let's take 20-30 issues to just convince me that Krypton is gone, my parents are dead, and I'm not just dreaming all of this."

I mean just... ugh. Can't they come up with anything better than this stuff?

I guess not.... sigh.


Conclusion: I'm just glad I haven't read Supergirl since Peter David was writing it.

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Re: I'm Getting Pissed Off Again With Comics

Postby Chessack » Sat Sep 21, 2013 7:09 pm

The Shadow wrote:Doc Ock does something villainous. Spider-Man shows up. Doc slightly gets the upper hand but eventually Spider-Man is victorious and Doc either escapes or goes to jail.

Green Goblin does something villainous. Spider-Man shows up. Goblin slightly gets the upper hand but eventually Spider-Man is victorious and Goblin either escapes or goes to jail.


Well if you telescope out to a wide enough angle every story is like that. There is a protagonist and an antagonist, and the antagonist does something bad, and the protagonist has to stop him/set the world straight.

That is NOT what I am talking about. I am talking about them repeating the same story over and over again. Supergirl 16 and 17 are almost the same exact story. #16 - Flash shows up and tries to convince H'el and Supergirl to stop, and they fight him off (and refuse to listen). #17 - Wonder Woman shows up and... exactly the same thing happens. This isn't just them following a plot archetype like a murder mystery show each week. This would be like them solving the exact same murder two weeks in a row, just with different perps. If you add in the Superman and Superboy issues, it happens even more (Supergirl fights both of them at different times, and it's the exact same thing each time -- they try to reason with her, she won't listen, and a mindless fight ensues).

Also, I would argue that the good comics were never just a "villain of the month" club. Perez's Wonder Woman. Simonson's Thor. Peter David's 80-issue run on Matrix Supergirl's series. Kurt Busiek's Astro City. And plenty more.

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Re: I'm Getting Pissed Off Again With Comics

Postby Arion » Sat Sep 21, 2013 7:13 pm

Chessack wrote:
Well if you telescope out to a wide enough angle every story is like that. There is a protagonist and an antagonist, and the antagonist does something bad, and the protagonist has to stop him/set the world straight.

That is NOT what I am talking about. I am talking about them repeating the same story over and over again. Supergirl 16 and 17 are almost the same exact story. #16 - Flash shows up and tries to convince H'el and Supergirl to stop, and they fight him off (and refuse to listen). #17 - Wonder Woman shows up and... exactly the same thing happens. This isn't just them following a plot archetype like a murder mystery show each week. This would be like them solving the exact same murder two weeks in a row, just with different perps. If you add in the Superman and Superboy issues, it happens even more (Supergirl fights both of them at different times, and it's the exact same thing each time -- they try to reason with her, she won't listen, and a mindless fight ensues).

Also, I would argue that the good comics were never just a "villain of the month" club. Perez's Wonder Woman. Simonson's Thor. Peter David's 80-issue run on Matrix Supergirl's series. Kurt Busiek's Astro City. And plenty more.


Perez's Wonder Woman was great. I'm reading Simonson's Thor first volume now. Busiek's Astro City is brilliant.

But we still have good comics nowadays, don't we?

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Re: I'm Getting Pissed Off Again With Comics

Postby Chessack » Sat Sep 21, 2013 7:13 pm

Arion wrote:Conclusion: I'm just glad I haven't read Supergirl since Peter David was writing it.


Yeah, I'd probably be a lot happier if I hadn't, either. Unfortunately I'm a sucker for anything with the name "Supergirl" on it. Mostly out of nostalgia for the original, pre-Crisis character (who in his own way Peter David did a very good job paying tribute to with his Matrix S-girl stuff). When I say "Supergirl is my favorite comic-book character," it's the original I'm talking about. The one who was a true hero, and who willingly died saving her cousin's life (and the multiverse). The one who took on Darkseid solo after he'd whupped the entire LSH and punched him into orbit. The one with the ready smile who cheerfully saved people because that's who she was.

Not this empty-headed rage-filled irresponsible selfish teen they have running around the DCnU right now. They may call her "Supergirl" but she's no more Supergirl than the pre-Peter-David Matrix was.

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Re: I'm Getting Pissed Off Again With Comics

Postby Arion » Sat Sep 21, 2013 7:17 pm

Chessack wrote:
Yeah, I'd probably be a lot happier if I hadn't, either. Unfortunately I'm a sucker for anything with the name "Supergirl" on it. Mostly out of nostalgia for the original, pre-Crisis character (who in his own way Peter David did a very good job paying tribute to with his Matrix S-girl stuff). When I say "Supergirl is my favorite comic-book character," it's the original I'm talking about. The one who was a true hero, and who willingly died saving her cousin's life (and the multiverse). The one who took on Darkseid solo after he'd whupped the entire LSH and punched him into orbit. The one with the ready smile who cheerfully saved people because that's who she was.

Not this empty-headed rage-filled irresponsible selfish teen they have running around the DCnU right now. They may call her "Supergirl" but she's no more Supergirl than the pre-Peter-David Matrix was.


Wouldn't it be better if you stick to buying old Supergirl material? (Unless you have a huge collection already),

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Re: I'm Getting Pissed Off Again With Comics

Postby Chessack » Sat Sep 21, 2013 7:20 pm

Arion wrote:But we still have good comics nowadays, don't we?


Sure. I can name a bunch. Not many of 'em are from the New 52.

In DC right now...

Wonder Woman is good as a stand-alone body of work. Although I really do not like this new interpretation of WW -- I prefer the Perez version. I can't argue with the quality of the writing and plotting though. It is well done.

I know it's controversial but the Batgirl series has been pretty good... though I will say Gail has not hit quite the number of high notes since she was fired and brought back, as she was hitting in the first year (issues 1-12, 0, etc). It feels like something's missing since she returned. It's good though.

Earth-2 has been quite good still. In fact the Earth-2 characters feel more like proper DCU characters than the guys on the "regular" earth (what are we calling regular earth now? Earth-0?? I don't even know). But of course, Robinson has been fired from that book, so I don't know what it'll be like after next month.

Supposedly Batman is good but I am so freaking sick of Batman that I have no interest at this point in reading another book about him.

But getting back to some of Cat's original complaints, even with those series you can't avoid the damn events/crossovers. E-2 and WW have avoided them until this month, but here we are in VM and who knows how much impact this Forever Evil crap will have on these books down the line?

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Re: I'm Getting Pissed Off Again With Comics

Postby IvCNuB4 » Sat Sep 21, 2013 7:21 pm

Chessack wrote:
New 52 Supergirl is a great example again... 24 issues in, and all I know about her is that she's an angry teen who loses her temper a lot. There's been no exploration of the deeper parts of her personality, and her reaction to losing her whole world and family and all that has been just surface-based. One or two panels of quiet reflection in 24 issues are not sufficient to reveal character.


You might want to check if some of your pages are stuck together. :wink:
"Supergirl" has had numerous narratives and a multitude of flashbacks showing her life on Krypton and explaining how it has shaped and affected her in the present.

Granted she was inexplicably a dumb blonde through the entire "H'El On earth" arc :lol:

And FYI, Robinson wasn't fired from "Earth 2". He chose to walk away.
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Re: I'm Getting Pissed Off Again With Comics

Postby Chessack » Sat Sep 21, 2013 7:24 pm

Arion wrote:Wouldn't it be better if you stick to buying old Supergirl material? (Unless you have a huge collection already),


I have every Supergirl that was printed going back to 1982. Earlier than that, we are getting into stuff that is expensive and/or hard to find. For instance, first-series Supergirl issues, if you can find them, go for $20-30 a pop in VG/F condition, much higher than that in better condition. And certain of the issues you just can't find anywhere.

I plan to buy those some day... but it will take years. The more modern stuff was easier to get my hands on, so I picked that up first, when I returned to comics last year.

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