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[ElijahSnowFan]

See, I read that differently than you, Herald -- and I honestly acknowledge your points. You are right in that all of those things happened in League history, and that means Winick certainly could've opted to acknowledge it, adhere to it. It's fair to criticize a writer when they don't.

But at the same time, as far as this revision is concerned, and some of the others...I read it as a take where she wasn't a thief. Her clan was. Her father showed nobility in trying to shield her from that life, to keep her from being less than she could be. When I read that take, I never got the feel that Ice ever did anything bad -- certainly not intentionally. Her father sacrificed himself by having her use her powers as she did when he died, and to me, that kept the essence of the character intact in the regard that she wasn't a thief, she wasn't a killer. Her father was a prince, which makes her a princess. She was a good-hearted kid with loving parents, and because of their teachings, she grew up to be a good-hearted person and a superhero.

For me, at some point in a character's history, that break between the Golden Age/Silver Age initial backstory, if a writer makes it, is a fair one to make. Not saying it's perfect, not saying it's always fair, but in this case I honestly think it's fair to say that when the original Icemaiden was created, the writer didn't spend nearly as much time thinking about her origin as Judd Winick did in presenting his version. Again, I had her first appearance. It was pure Silver Age, pure "Hey, everyone! This is Icemaiden, she has ice powers because she's Nordic and a princess, too."

As a reader, I'm sorry, but I can't hold writers to that standard, force them to build off that. Even some of the subsequent storytelling that you mentioned...it was built off a weaker premise that was just difficult to hold up over time, even in this industry where for the better part of 30 years, I have patiently waited for my mutant abilities to manifest.

For instance, my biggest complaint about characters like Deathstroke and Prometheus is that when you create a one-note character with guns and swords who are killers, then at some point, they're gonna pull that gun or sword and kill somebody with it. So when that happens, you can't act like that genie didn't come out of the bottle. You can't unring that bell. There are consequences for such actions, and what DC has always failed to do, certainly less so than Marvel, is show consequences to those actions.

An example: The Judas Contract went down, with Terra dying, in I believe, 1985? But it took Geo-Force 28 years -- TWENTY-EIGHT YEARS -- to go looking for Deathstroke to settle the score. Does that make sense? Of course not. That story needed to be told, and it needed to be told damn near immediately, and DC's always been a lesser company for not wanting their characters, especially villains, to face consequences.

So, Herald: I understand what you're saying. Judd Winick could have opted to work with the established history of Ice, and it would not have been the worst thing in the world if he had.

But at the same time, I understand why he did it -- his story was published in 2010-2011. Ice had barely been used in, what, 15 years, until Gail Simone brought her back in Birds of Prey on basically a whim. And as much as I hate it sometimes, the cycle of characters/concepts/universes...it just isn't that long anymore. Books at the Big Two barely reach 50 issues anymore, hardly ever hit 100 anymore. I won't be at all surprised if not a single one of the New 52, for instance, reaches 100 issues, for whatever reason. That's 8-plus years of publishing, which means that you will have had as many as six "Crisis-level Events That Change Everything."

That's where I am with it...the industry has changed, and not necessarily for the better, but it has changed. A snapshot origin written in 1978, even expanded upon in 1988...just isn't going to hold up in this industry anymore. For better or worse.

[Amoebas]

ESJ is the Anti-Herald.

[Herald]

See, I read that differently than you, Herald -- and I honestly acknowledge your points. You are right in that all of those things happened in League history, and that means Winick certainly could've opted to acknowledge it, adhere to it. It's fair to criticize a writer when they don't.

But at the same time, as far as this revision is concerned, and some of the others...I read it as a take where she wasn't a thief. Her clan was.

Again, this is not a mere "take" on her origin; this is a complete revision of everything she is.

She does NOT have a "clan".
She is NOT a Gypsy.
We've SEEN her true family, and they are NOT Gypsies.
THAT is the point!

Her father showed nobility in trying to shield her from that life, to keep her from being less than she could be. When I read that take, I never got the feel that Ice ever did anything bad -- certainly not intentionally. Her father sacrificed himself by having her use her powers as she did when he died, and to me, that kept the essence of the character intact in the regard that she wasn't a thief, she wasn't a killer.

The essence of the character is that she is a kindly NORDIC princess of a hidden ice kingdom.
There is nothing Gypsy in this.

For me, at some point in a character's history, that break between the Golden Age/Silver Age initial backstory, if a writer makes it, is a fair one to make.

1. Tell it to Superman.
Or Batman.
I'm pretty sure they're still pushing those "rocketed to Earth from Krypton" and "child of murdered parents vows to wage a lifelong war on crime" origins from the late '30s.
When those two fundamentally change, call me.

2. Ice's origin was first revealed in an issue of Secret Origins, in the late '80s.
That ain't "Golden Age/Silver Age".

3. And arguably most important: You *are* aware that Ice is NOT Ice Maiden??
After Ice died, the original, blue Ice Maiden appeared and joined the League, in Gerard Jones's run of Justice League America.



http://dcworld.itgo.com/IcemaidenI.html

Ice is Tora Olafsdotter. She first appeared in Justice League America (1987) #10
Ice MAIDEN is Sigrid Nansen. She is the one who first appeared in Super Friends #9, the one you keep talking about.
They are two different people.

Not saying it's perfect, not saying it's always fair, but in this case I honestly think it's fair to say that when the original Icemaiden was created, the writer didn't spend nearly as much time thinking about her origin as Judd Winick did in presenting his version.

It's clear that Judd didn't think, much, either, because if he had, he would have avoided the stereotype.

Again, I had her first appearance. It was pure Silver Age, pure "Hey, everyone! This is Icemaiden, she has ice powers because she's Nordic and a princess, too."

Ah, yes, because anything Silver Age must be bad. That whole "bitten by a radioactive spider" thing?? And that hokey "With great power Comes Great Responsibility" routine?? Let's give that stuff the heave-ho, too!! Ideas from creators like Stan Lee MUST be completely irrelevant to the characters nowadays, because they come from the -- *Gasp!!* -- Silver Age!!

As a reader, I'm sorry, but I can't hold writers to that standard, force them to build off that. Even some of the subsequent storytelling that you mentioned...it was built off a weaker premise that was just difficult to hold up over time, even in this industry where for the better part of 30 years, I have patiently waited for my mutant abilities to manifest.

If they can't build off of that, then they can write OTHER characters that they CAN build off of.

Or, better yet in the case of perennially piss-poor writers like Judd, THERE'S THE DOOR.
He can close it on his way OUT.

For instance, my biggest complaint about characters like Deathstroke and Prometheus is that when you create a one-note character with guns and swords who are killers, then at some point, they're gonna pull that gun or sword and kill somebody with it. So when that happens, you can't act like that genie didn't come out of the bottle. You can't unring that bell. There are consequences for such actions, and what DC has always failed to do, certainly less so than Marvel, is show consequences to those actions.

As I've pointed out a million times (probably literally, by now): The DCU is NOT the MU.

DC heroes -- PROPERLY written, rather than written the DiDio Era way -- generally don't stoop to the villains' level. They have a moral imperative not to kill.

Heck, the ONLY reason Batman and Commisioner Gordon's friendship ever formed at all, the ONLY reason Jim ever allowed this borderline-insane Bat-vigilante and his kiddie cohorts to operate in Gotham, much less put a night-brightening Bat-hotline on the top of Police HQ in order to summon him, is because they don't step over that line.

That is one of the differences between DC and Marvel.
To have the DC heroes go out and kill is another example of DiDio-era Marvelization.

An example: The Judas Contract went down, with Terra dying, in I believe, 1985? But it took Geo-Force 28 years -- TWENTY-EIGHT YEARS -- to go looking for Deathstroke to settle the score. Does that make sense? Of course not.

It does if you read Batman and the Outsiders Annual #1. There was no score to settle. Geo-Force realized that Terra was a traitor, working for Deathstroke completely of her own volition. Every second of every minute of every hour of every day that Tara Markov spent with the Titans was another opportunity to make a Heel Face Turn, as many readers at the time expected her to do. But she chose NOT to do so. That was HER fault, not Slade's.

Charging Slade for Tara's decision is what makes no sense. And, in the "proud" tradition of the Justice League's idiotic fight against Deathstroke, neither did Geo-Force's battle with Deathstroke; Brion can increase gravity so that Slade can't move, so, properly written, this fight should have been over before it ever begun.

But hey, it wouldn't be the DiDio era if competent, experienced DC heroes didn't suddenly act like incompetent dolts just so they can lose.

That story needed to be told, and it needed to be told damn near immediately, and DC's always been a lesser company for not wanting their characters, especially villains, to face consequences.

PLEASE. If Marvel is all about characters facing consequences, why isn't Zechs's pal Doctor Doom DEAD?? How much does HE have to do, how many nations does he have to subjugate, before he's massacred and buried once and for all?? (If Reed Richards Is Useless, just get Squirrel Girl to do it; Vic's already afraid of her!) How about Spidey's buddy Doc Ock??

How many times are the X-Men going to let MAGNETO keep circling through the Heel Face Revolving Door before they cash in his chips for good, hmmm?? Heck, as Storm so nicely mentioned, almost all of Cyclops's current team is composed of ex-villains!! Why isn't someone wasting the lot of them once and for all for their crimes?! Quick, someone collapse Colossus! Negate Namor! Demolish Danger! And I hear that GALACTUS is still around, still eating planets because Aunt May isn't bringing him any more Twinkies that size. When does THIS guy get his ultimate comeuppance?? Oh, but I hear they can't, because he's some sort of "necessary evil". Let's face it; that is just a Necessary WEASEL excuse to keep him around.

Clearly, Joker Immunity doesn't just work for the Joker or many other popular DC villains, you know!

So, Herald: I understand what you're saying. Judd Winick could have opted to work with the established history of Ice, and it would not have been the worst thing in the world if he had.

But at the same time, I understand why he did it -- his story was published in 2010-2011. Ice had barely been used in, what, 15 years, until Gail Simone brought her back in Birds of Prey on basically a whim. And as much as I hate it sometimes, the cycle of characters/concepts/universes...it just isn't that long anymore. Books at the Big Two barely reach 50 issues anymore, hardly ever hit 100 anymore. I won't be at all surprised if not a single one of the New 52, for instance, reaches 100 issues, for whatever reason. That's 8-plus years of publishing, which means that you will have had as many as six "Crisis-level Events That Change Everything."

That's where I am with it...the industry has changed, and not necessarily for the better, but it has changed. A snapshot origin written in 1978, even expanded upon in 1988...just isn't going to hold up in this industry anymore. For better or worse.

Hate to say it, man, but these are some silly excuses you're coming up with for Judd's literary duds.

1. It wasn't just expanded upon in 1988...

2. Again, did all those other Silver Age characters' origins change pre-Flashpoint, particularly to become an insulting stereotype?? Did Hal Jordan become a Little Black Sambo?? Maybe Ray Palmer (in some warped nod to his replacement) was retconned as a squinty-eyed Yellow Peril holdover with a Fu Manchu beard?? No, of course not. That would be stupid, and so is Ice the Gypsy.

3. It doesn't matter how long a character "hasn't been used". Changing the character's background so radically warps the character beyond recognition. If you're going to do that to a character who last saw use 15 years ago, you may as well not have bothered reaching back there in the first place. Better you create a new hero to be your pandering Gypsy stereotype, instead.

The "Ice" that Judd wrote and you're enjoying is the Halle Berry Catwoman version of Ice.
Enjoy your "Halle" Ice if you must, but don't ever delude yourself into thinking that you're getting the real deal.

One more thing:
Remember when you finally had that epiphany that I was right about certain aspects of the DiDio era?? Good. Hopefully, your nigh-inevitable realization about this example will dawn much more quickly than that one.

I'll be waiting for you to catch up again...

[Herald]

ESJ is the Anti-Herald.

Incorrect.

As I've said, he's eventually realized that I'm right before, and hopefully he won't take nearly as long to realize it again.

[Benderbrau]

ESJ is the Anti-Herald.

Anyone who's had sex with a woman is the anti-Herald

[BubbaKanoosh]

Sometimes it's good to enjoy a comic for just that.

[ElijahSnowFan]

Incorrect.

As I've said, he's eventually realized that I'm right before, and hopefully he won't take nearly as long to realize it again.

Ha! I acknowledge when people are right about certain things I didn't agree with; that's just part of being an adult. I'm not right all the time.

Here's one: Obviously, it has been forever since I broke out the Justice League issues, and I had indeed forgotten the Ice/Icemaiden stuff. Wow. Pretty much unforgivable, and I'll own it -- not on anybody but me to know the difference between the two. The older I get, the worse my memory becomes, and in this case, I absolutely have blurred lines between the two characters, which is my error.

But that doesn't mean I agree with all of Herald's points that don't pertain to Ice/Icemaiden, because clearly, throughout comics history, creators have gone back and added/subtracted things from characters. Batman once carried guns. Superman once couldn't fly. So on and so forth.

My overall point is that: As much as I would have liked to have remembered all of the differences between Ice/Icemaiden for the purpose of this discussion, the passage of time was a huge factor in that -- at some point, and that point is different for everyone -- if a character isn't being used, how long does that character's history have to stand up? DC had even gone through Infinite Crisis and the Superboy Punch, you know? Things had changed.

As much as we all want to keep characters the same, there isn't a character out there who has been published for any length of time that is the same as when they appeared.

It changes, Herald. It just does. Max Lord being bad, good or a robot...well, over the course of comics, this stuff changes.

[ElijahSnowFan]

Sometimes it's good to enjoy a comic for just that.

Of course, I could have just kept my point this simple, too.

[Herald]

Ha! I acknowledge when people are right about certain things I didn't agree with; that's just part of being an adult. I'm not right all the time.

Here's one: Obviously, it has been forever since I broke out the Justice League issues, and I had indeed forgotten the Ice/Icemaiden stuff. Wow. Pretty much unforgivable, and I'll own it -- not on anybody but me to know the difference between the two. The older I get, the worse my memory becomes, and in this case, I absolutely have blurred lines between the two characters, which is my error.

But that doesn't mean I agree with all of Herald's points that don't pertain to Ice/Icemaiden, because clearly, throughout comics history, creators have gone back and added/subtracted things from characters. Batman once carried guns. Superman once couldn't fly. So on and so forth.

My overall point is that: As much as I would have liked to have remembered all of the differences between Ice/Icemaiden for the purpose of this discussion, the passage of time was a huge factor in that -- at some point, and that point is different for everyone -- if a character isn't being used, how long does that character's history have to stand up? DC had even gone through Infinite Crisis and the Superboy Punch, you know? Things had changed.

As much as we all want to keep characters the same, there isn't a character out there who has been published for any length of time that is the same as when they appeared.

It changes, Herald. It just does. Max Lord being bad, good or a robot...well, over the course of comics, this stuff changes.

Hal Jordan was gone as GL for 11 years.
Was he still a test pilot??
Did he still receive his original ring from Abin Sur??
Yes and yes.
And why?? Because they wanted it to stay that way.

Does Power Girl still have her Atlantean origin??
NOPE.
They changed it BACK to the Kryptonian origin.
And why?? Because they wanted it changed back.

So please don't give me this "Things Gotta Change" song and dance.
It's completely bogus, and few things demonstrate this more than Dan and the Gang's own actions.
Things change NOT because they "Must change!", but because somebody WANTED to change it.

As I already said, you eventually realized that I'm right before, and hopefully you won't take nearly as long to realize it again. I'll wait...

[Herald]

Sometimes it's good to enjoy a comic for just that.

Problem is, they create these books to exist within a larger context. And in that larger context, DiDio-era stories have a nasty tendency not to work... even when THEY created said context!

[aeroblast]

It is not really realistic for Ice to be a princess of Ice because there are no real Ice princesses. Hence making Ice a gypsy is more relatable and realistic and preferable.

[Arion]

I don't read much DC, so if I like something they do, you know it's based on quality rather than nonsensical DC fanboyism.

Ah, neutrality.

[Agent Panic]

At the end of the day, this is yet another example of the Marvelization of the DCU. Suddenly, EVERYbody has to suddenly gain some artificial, nasty flaw, ESPECIALLY if they were previously renowned for their niceness. It's the same "Make 'em MEAN!" garbage they've been dumping on Superman, Captain Marvel, and the current Justice League. The same garbage many of you say you can't tolerate in THOSE characters, you somehow find acceptable in Ice??!!

Notice how no one's talking about how the current League is going to "overcome" its oh-so-"human" portrayal; apparently, they've had 5 years to do so, but quite blatantly DIDN'T overcome anything. And let's face it, neither would Winick's Ice, because he was no more worried about her "overcoming" it than Johns is now about the League! Like Johns with the League, Ice's miserable portrayal is just the piss-poor, misbegotten way that Judd sees the character. End of story, LITERALLY.

Moreover, this isn't just "a failing". Ice's REAL history as the REAL princess of a REAL ice kingdom HAS been established and explored in Dan Vado's run of Justice League America. Tora's REAL father, mother, and brother all appeared in it, all of them rulers of said kingdom, and distinctly NON-Gypsies. And when Ice died during the League's Overmaster storyline, Tora's body was taken back there for her funeral. That means THREE different Justice League teams attended it! And, in his solo book, Guy Gardner also visited the kingdom, to pay his respects to Ice and her mother. So NO, I'm not going to let Judd Winick try to tell me that none of this backstory existed, especially when the alternative he offers is this insensitive stereotype nonsense. And neither should you.

The fact is that Winick changed Ice's history into this "Gypsy stereotype" bastardization purely because he can't believe in the existence of a princess of an ice kingdom. Well, frankly, if he can't believe in such a fantastical backstory, he doesn't belong in the fantasy-riddled superhero comics industry. You either believe A Man Can Fly Because He Comes from a Planet Conveniently Named After an Element on the Earth's Periodic Table, and A Woman Can Be the Future Ruler of a Hidden Frozen Kingdom, or you get outta here.

Nah.

JLI was a great book.

[ElijahSnowFan]

So, I finished reading it.

Tremendous stuff by Winick. It got a little dicey at the end because DC had effed up Wonder Woman by the time the final act rolled around, but I give Winick credit for holding it together through that and Bruce Wayne's return.

I enjoyed that maxi a great deal. Know what I really liked? The interaction between Max Lord and Professor Ivo. Man, it was awesome having Ivo portrayed with a consistent purpose.