ElijahSnowFan wrote:See, I read that differently than you, Herald -- and I honestly acknowledge your points. You are right in that all of those things happened in League history, and that means Winick certainly could've opted to acknowledge it, adhere to it. It's fair to criticize a writer when they don't.
But at the same time, as far as this revision is concerned, and some of the others...I read it as a take where she wasn't a thief. Her clan was.
Again, this is not a mere "take" on her origin; this is a complete revision of everything she is.
She does NOT have a "clan".
She is NOT a Gypsy.
We've SEEN her true family, and they are NOT Gypsies.
THAT is the point!
Her father showed nobility in trying to shield her from that life, to keep her from being less than she could be. When I read that take, I never got the feel that Ice ever did anything bad -- certainly not intentionally. Her father sacrificed himself by having her use her powers as she did when he died, and to me, that kept the essence of the character intact in the regard that she wasn't a thief, she wasn't a killer.
The essence of the character is that she is a kindly NORDIC princess of a hidden ice kingdom.
There is nothing Gypsy in this.
For me, at some point in a character's history, that break between the Golden Age/Silver Age initial backstory, if a writer makes it, is a fair one to make.
1. Tell it to Superman.
I'm pretty sure they're still pushing those "rocketed to Earth from Krypton" and "child of murdered parents vows to wage a lifelong war on crime" origins from the late '30s.
When those two fundamentally change, call me.
2. Ice's origin was first revealed in an issue of Secret Origins, in the late '80s.
That ain't "Golden Age/Silver Age".
3. And arguably most important: You *are* aware that Ice is NOT Ice Maiden
After Ice died, the original, blue Ice Maiden appeared and joined the League, in Gerard Jones's run of Justice League America.http://dcworld.itgo.com/IcemaidenI.html
Ice is Tora Olafsdotter. She first appeared in Justice League America (1987) #10
Ice MAIDEN is Sigrid Nansen. She is the one who first appeared in Super Friends #9, the one you keep talking about.
They are two different people.
Not saying it's perfect, not saying it's always fair, but in this case I honestly think it's fair to say that when the original Icemaiden was created, the writer didn't spend nearly as much time thinking about her origin as Judd Winick did in presenting his version.
It's clear that Judd didn't think, much, either, because if he had, he would have avoided the stereotype.
Again, I had her first appearance. It was pure Silver Age, pure "Hey, everyone! This is Icemaiden, she has ice powers because she's Nordic and a princess, too."
Ah, yes, because anything Silver Age must be bad. That whole "bitten by a radioactive spider" thing?? And that hokey "With great power Comes Great Responsibility" routine?? Let's give that stuff the heave-ho, too!! Ideas from creators like Stan Lee MUST be completely irrelevant to the characters nowadays, because they come from the -- *Gasp!!* -- Silver Age!!
As a reader, I'm sorry, but I can't hold writers to that standard, force them to build off that. Even some of the subsequent storytelling that you mentioned...it was built off a weaker premise that was just difficult to hold up over time, even in this industry where for the better part of 30 years, I have patiently waited for my mutant abilities to manifest.
If they can't build off of that, then they can write OTHER characters that they CAN build off of.
Or, better yet in the case of perennially piss-poor writers like Judd, THERE'S THE DOOR.
He can close it on his way OUT.
For instance, my biggest complaint about characters like Deathstroke and Prometheus is that when you create a one-note character with guns and swords who are killers, then at some point, they're gonna pull that gun or sword and kill somebody with it. So when that happens, you can't act like that genie didn't come out of the bottle. You can't unring that bell. There are consequences for such actions, and what DC has always failed to do, certainly less so than Marvel, is show consequences to those actions.
As I've pointed out a million times (probably literally, by now): The DCU is NOT the MU.
DC heroes -- PROPERLY written, rather than written the DiDio Era way -- generally don't stoop to the villains' level. They have a moral imperative not to kill.
Heck, the ONLY reason Batman and Commisioner Gordon's friendship ever formed at all, the ONLY reason Jim ever allowed this borderline-insane Bat-vigilante and his kiddie cohorts to operate in Gotham, much less put a night-brightening Bat-hotline on the top of Police HQ in order to summon him, is because they don't step over that line.
That is one of the differences between DC and Marvel.
To have the DC heroes go out and kill is another example of DiDio-era Marvelization.
An example: The Judas Contract went down, with Terra dying, in I believe, 1985? But it took Geo-Force 28 years -- TWENTY-EIGHT YEARS -- to go looking for Deathstroke to settle the score. Does that make sense? Of course not.
It does if you read Batman and the Outsiders Annual #1. There was no score to settle. Geo-Force realized that Terra was a traitor, working for Deathstroke completely of her own volition. Every second of every minute of every hour of every day that Tara Markov spent with the Titans was another opportunity to make a Heel Face Turn
, as many readers at the time expected her to do. But she chose NOT to do so. That was HER fault, not Slade's.
Charging Slade for Tara's decision is what makes no sense. And, in the "proud" tradition of the Justice League's idiotic fight against Deathstroke, neither did Geo-Force's battle with Deathstroke; Brion can increase gravity so that Slade can't move, so, properly written, this fight should have been over before it ever begun.
But hey, it wouldn't be the DiDio era if competent, experienced DC heroes didn't suddenly act like incompetent dolts just so they can lose.
That story needed to be told, and it needed to be told damn near immediately, and DC's always been a lesser company for not wanting their characters, especially villains, to face consequences.
PLEASE. If Marvel is all about characters facing consequences, why isn't Zechs's pal Doctor Doom DEAD?? How much does HE have to do, how many nations does he have to subjugate, before he's massacred and buried once and for all?? (If Reed Richards Is Useless
, just get Squirrel Girl to do it; Vic's already afraid of her!) How about Spidey's buddy Doc Ock??
How many times are the X-Men going to let MAGNETO keep circling through the Heel Face Revolving Door
before they cash in his chips for good, hmmm?? Heck, as Storm so nicely mentioned, almost all of Cyclops's current team is composed of ex-villains!! Why isn't someone wasting the lot of them once and for all for their crimes?! Quick, someone collapse Colossus! Negate Namor! Demolish Danger! And I hear that GALACTUS is still around, still eating planets because Aunt May isn't bringing him any more Twinkies that size. When does THIS guy get his ultimate comeuppance?? Oh, but I hear they can't, because he's some sort of "necessary evil". Let's face it; that is just a Necessary WEASEL
excuse to keep him around.
Clearly, Joker Immunity
doesn't just work for the Joker or many other popular DC villains, you know!
So, Herald: I understand what you're saying. Judd Winick could have opted to work with the established history of Ice, and it would not have been the worst thing in the world if he had.
But at the same time, I understand why he did it -- his story was published in 2010-2011. Ice had barely been used in, what, 15 years, until Gail Simone brought her back in Birds of Prey on basically a whim. And as much as I hate it sometimes, the cycle of characters/concepts/universes...it just isn't that long anymore. Books at the Big Two barely reach 50 issues anymore, hardly ever hit 100 anymore. I won't be at all surprised if not a single one of the New 52, for instance, reaches 100 issues, for whatever reason. That's 8-plus years of publishing, which means that you will have had as many as six "Crisis-level Events That Change Everything."
That's where I am with it...the industry has changed, and not necessarily for the better, but it has changed. A snapshot origin written in 1978, even expanded upon in 1988...just isn't going to hold up in this industry anymore. For better or worse.
Hate to say it, man, but these are some silly excuses you're coming up with for Judd's literary duds.
1. It wasn't just expanded upon in 1988...
2. Again, did all those other Silver Age characters' origins change pre-Flashpoint, particularly to become an insulting stereotype?? Did Hal Jordan become a Little Black Sambo?? Maybe Ray Palmer (in some warped nod to his replacement) was retconned as a squinty-eyed Yellow Peril
holdover with a Fu Manchu beard?? No, of course not. That would be stupid, and so is Ice the Gypsy.
3. It doesn't matter how long a character "hasn't been used". Changing the character's background so radically warps the character beyond recognition. If you're going to do that to a character who last saw use 15 years ago, you may as well not have bothered reaching back there in the first place. Better you create a new hero to be your pandering Gypsy stereotype, instead.
The "Ice" that Judd wrote and you're enjoying is the Halle Berry Catwoman version of Ice.
Enjoy your "Halle" Ice if you must, but don't ever delude yourself into thinking that you're getting the real deal.
One more thing:
Remember when you finally had that epiphany that I was right about certain aspects of the DiDio era?? Good. Hopefully, your nigh-inevitable realization about this example will dawn much more quickly than that one.
I'll be waiting for you to catch up again...